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Post by chron on Oct 25, 2019 15:38:40 GMT
TIE: =69. "Does Your Mother Know" from Voulez-Vous
"But I can't take a chance on a chick like you." average: 5.5714 points (highest score: 8 = Hometime, TheDayBeforeYouCame, lowest score: 0 = Shoshin) =69. "Dum Dum Diddle" from Arrival
"To be so near you and not just hear you." average: 5.5714 points (highest score: 8 = No.95, lowest score: 2 = Johnny) 68. "Arrival" from Arrivalaverage: 5.6428 points (highest score: 8 = TheDayBeforeYouCame, lowest score: 3 = smugasacat)
3-way Tie: =65. "Andante, Andante" from Super Trouper"Please don't talk. Go on, play." average: 5.85714 points (highest score: 10 = Chelseacharger, lowest score: 2 = Shoshin, smugasacat) Ginger Spice said, "I love the alternate mix with the accordion. Now the album version seems like it's missing something." =65. "Why Did It Have to Be Me?" from Arrival"It's better to forget me." average: 5.85714 points (highest score: 9 = Gary, lowest score: 3 = Ginger Spice) =65. "Me and I" from Super Trouper"Think about yourself for a minute, then you'll find the answer in it: everyone's a freak" average: 5.85714 points (highest score: 9 = TheDayBeforeYouCame, lowest score: 2 = Shoshin) 3-Way Tie: =62. "Under Attack""About to crack, defences breaking." average: 5.9286 points (highest score: 9 = TheDayBeforeYouCame, lowest score: 4 = Gary) =62. "Hey, Hey Helen" from ABBA""But you're right, you had to take a second chance." average: 5.9286 points (highest score: 9 = Hometime, lowest score: 2 = Johnny) Hometime said, "I don’t understand why this gets so few positive comments. When I first got this album, it was the track that really jumped out at me and has remained a favourite ever since. The chorus is very strong, with mild hints of gospel in the vocal arrangement. The breakdown in the middle is great too. It’s one of those songs where the unison singing is so tight, that I thought it had a lead vocal. Those women were AMAZING in the studio." TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "I don't get why it's disliked by fans." =62. "Another Town, Another Train" from Ring Ring"Guess I will spend my life in railway stations." average: 5.9286 points (highest score: 8 = Gary, lowest score: 3 = TheDayBeforeYouCame) TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "Too twee, too saccharine. I hate those flutes." Hmm. Me And I and Hey, Hey, Helen have been shown the door far too soon. Have a word with yourselves, you lot! All of my favorites are going already Only real disappointment, Hey, Hey Helen - great rockier sound, deserves a lot more than it gets. Dum Dum Diddle's placing is a bit disappointing. Such a lovely, lively tune (love the transition section of the verses - "But it's bad/You're so sad..."- where the tune and the chiming, marimba-ish treatment are doing something that isn't a million miles away from an inverted version of the Mamma-Mia intro riff), and for such a supposedly throwaway track, the band's performance is a fully engaged, enthusiastic one. I'll always contend that this is a bit of a hidden gem. 'Does Your Mother Know' is good but one of their weakest singles. 'Dum Dum Diddle' is very catchy, if only it had better lyrics. 'Arrival' is okay but a bit boring. 'Andante Andante' and 'Me And I' are the only weak songs on 'Super Trouper'; I never listen to them. 'Why Did It Have to Be Me?' and 'I Am the City' are both okay. 'Another Town, Another Train' is beautiful, it's my favourite song from their early years. I liked 'Hey, Hey Helen' more in the past than I do now. 'Under Attack' isn't bad but shouldn't have been a single. 61. "Thank You For the Music" from The Album"Without a song or a dance, what are we?" average: 5.9643 points (highest score: 10 = Ginger Spice, smugasacat, lowest score: 3 = Hometime, Gary) The Album is the album with the highest placed lowest place, if that makes sense. I think Thank You For The Music deserves its relatively low placing. It's the only song on The Album I'm not so keen on. Not quite sure why. The tune is nice but I will never love the lyrics. Similarly, the lyrics of Dum Dum Diddle are the only slight blemish on Arrival. Nonetheless, both albums would be in an all-time Top 10 favourite albums of mine. Yeah, I'm not at all unhappy to see Thank You For The Music cropping up relatively early, either! One of the problems with it is that it's smug and self-congratulatory at heart ("I have a talent, a wonderful thing"). Someone patting themselves on the back will always stick in the craw, even if what they're claiming about themselves is true. Also: melody too saccharine. 'Thank You for the Music' only at number 61!? The chorus is heaven, one of ABBA's best. I think Thank You For The Music is unfairly maligned, although I'm not its biggest fan. It's actually one of Agnetha's best vocal performances. Lyrically, yes it's cheesy, but I think taken too literally. It's not just about someone bigging themselves up saying they have an amazing talent, it's the protagonist expressing gratitude, too. Anyway, it was part of the mini musical so context is lost. It would help if it was more tongue-in-cheek. Actually, I think that was Bjorn's intention? Who knows? Still, I'm not the biggest fan by any stretch and it annoys me how it's trotted out all the time when there are so many others.
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Post by chron on Oct 25, 2019 0:47:03 GMT
80. "Tropical Loveland" from ABBA"I wanna share it with you." average: 4.643 points (highest score: 8 = Alan, lowest score: 1 = Johnny) 79. "You Owe Me One""I need a rest from our petty little dramas." average: 4.7143 points (highest score: 8 = TheDayBeforeYouCame, lowest score: 2 = Johnny) Tie:
=77. "Two For the Price of One" from The Visitors"The purest streak of gold he'd struck." average: 4.78571 points (highest score: 8 = TheDayBeforeYouCame, lowest score: 1 = Gary, Johnny) TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "Get rid of the last part and it's an 9/10 in my book." =77. "Happy Hawaii""Swimming and surfing, enjoying the sun." average: 4.78571 points (highest score: 7 = Gary, Chelseacharger, Flitwick, Alan, lowest score: 2 = Ginger Spice, Johnny, Noctum) 76. "Dream World""I'm not so charming and you're not so groovy." average: 5.1071 points (highest score: 8 = No.95, lowest score: 1 = Cerulean) Tropical Loveland' and 'You Owe Me One' are both okay, I rarely listen to them. 'Two For the Price of One' is the only song I always skip on 'The Visitors'. I prefer the alternate version with the 'darker' lyrics to the original one. 'Happy Hawaii' is nice, it has the same holiday vibe as 'Tropical Loveland' but is a bit better. 'Dream World' has a fantastic chorus but weak verses. I think the opposite! Dream World's rowdy chorus isn't any great shakes, but its verses have decent, hard-edged lyrics and Agnetha's vocal has an intriguingly sardonic, flinty edge to it, making a nice and interesting change from her oft-used coy/beseeching/put-upon modes. Despite being a bit of a mish-mash, I think it's better than a number of tracks on the as-originally-released Voulez-Vous. Not much doubt that Two For The Price Of One is the worst song on the last five albums. 75. "Put On Your White Sombrero""Like an old fashioned hero, you stand before me." average: 5.1429 points (highest score: 8 = Alan, lowest score: 1 = Johnny)
74. "I Have a Dream" from Voulez-Vous"Pushing through the darkness, still another mile." average: 5.2143 points (highest score: 8 = Ginger Spice, lowest score: 2 = Johnny) Ginger Spice said, "Cheesy, yes, but I turn to this one when I'm down. It makes me feel better." 73. "Nina, Pretty Ballerina" from Ring Ring"This is the part that she likes to play." average: 5.2857 points (highest score: 8 = Johnny, lowest score: 3 = Gary, TheDayBeforeYouCame) 72. "My Mama Said" from Waterloo"Try to sneak out without saying, with my loudest record playing." average: 5.4286 points (highest score: 9 = Johnny, lowest score: 3 = Gary, Foreverfan, Shoshin) 71. "Disillusion" from Ring Ring"They say my wound will heal and only leave a scar, but then they never shared our love." average score: 5.5 (highest score: 9 = Ginger Spice, lowest score: 1 = foreverfan) I kinda thought that Disillusion and even I Have A Dream might be higher... The high/low revelations are pretty interesting. I'm personally sad to see "Disillusion" go. "I Have a Dream" was our first Gold hit to go. Only major disappointment so far... Dream World. For some reason I really like it...Otherwise all ok.. 'I Have a Dream' so low! I agree that it's the weakest song on 'Gold', but it's still better than 'Nina', 'My Mama Said' and 'Disillusion', IMO. I guess that 'Does Your Mother Know' will be the next 'Gold' song to crash out? I loved 'Put On Your White Sombrero' when I first listened to it, but lost interest in it very quickly, which is very unusual for an ABBA song. Yeah, Disillusion, I Have A Dream and I somehow imagined that 'He's Your Brother' too would all be at least a bit higher. #74 does seem a tad harsh on one of their number one singles. The kids choir rankles with some but the lyrics and sentiment of the song are really good. Only kept off the UK top spot by another hit featuring a children's choir and later a No.1 for uurrrrgghhhhhhh...Westlife. I'm not the biggest fan of I Have A Dream but even I thought it would be a little higher. I find My Mama Said better to listen to though. As for Dreamworld, I agree with the comments about Agnetha's voice but that intro...talk about making my ears bleed! Maybe I just have a bad copy or something.
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Post by chron on Oct 24, 2019 12:27:10 GMT
89. "Rock'n'Roll Band" from Ring Ring
"Come on baby, let's dance to the rock 'n' roll band." average: 3.7857 points (highest score: 8 = Gary, lowest score: 1 = Hometime) TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "Nice ending to the album." 88. "She's My Kind of Girl"
"Who could ever believe that she would be mine?" average: 3.8571 points (highest score: 8 = Johnny, lowest score: 2 = Noctum, Foreverfan) 87. "Watch Out" from Waterloo
"And I'm gonna tame you, wild thing." average: 4 points (highest score: 8 = TheDayBeforeYouCame, lowest score: 0 = Noctum) TIE:
=85. "What About Livingstone?" from Waterloo
"Wasn't it worth the while, travelling up the Nile?" average: 4.1429 points (highest score: 7 = Gary, lowest score: 1 = Noctum) TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "Worst song in the album. Maybe one of the worst ABBA songs ever." =85. Medley: "Pick a Bale of Cotton"/"On Top of Old Smokey"/"Midnight Special"
"If you say a thing about it, you're in trouble with the man." average: 4.1429 points (highest score: 8 = Ginger Spice, lowest score: 1 = Shoshin) Ginger Spice said, "I love how much fun this is. I wish they had opened up to doing more covers." TIE:=83. "Suzy-Hang-Around" from Waterloo
"Nobody wants you around here and that's for sure." average: 4.2143 points (highest score: 7 = Gary, No.95, lowest score: 1 = Smugasacat)
=83. "He Is Your Brother" from Ring Ring
"We all need words of comfort and compassion." average: 4.2143 points (highest score: 7 = Hometime, Shoshin, lowest score: 0 = Johnny)
82. "Love Isn't Easy (But It Sure Is Hard Enough)" from Ring Ring
"Give me some more time and you'll see our love will grow. average: 4.3571 points (highest score: 7 = Flitwick, lowest score: 2 = Cerulean) 81. "People Need Love" from Ring Ring
"We gotta have hope to carry on living." average: 4.5714 points (highest score: 7 = Flitwick, Chelseacharger, lowest score: 2 = Johnny) Running to form at the moment, no big surprises, which is quite interesting in its own way. On the old forum I believe there were in the region of a 100 such polls, and apart from the odd member, one having Me and Bobby at number 1, it evened its self out to the usual suspects, so it remains to be seen one year plus on if that proves true. Oh dear, now everyone knows I am the world's biggest fan of Rock 'n' Roll Band, What About Livingstone and Suzy-Hang-Around! The dodgy lyrics aside, I think Suzy-Hang-Around is a lovely piece and the sunny vocal arrangement on What About Livingstone always cheers me up. I'm also pleased to see Watch Out getting some love from TheDayBeforeYouCame. I think it's another underrated track. I feel a session with the Waterloo album looming! She's My Kind of Girl' and 'Love Isn't Easy' aren't that bad, the rest however is. Can't believe that 'Rock Me' was so successful in Australia, I don't like it at all. Who the hell had the idea that Benny should take his shirt off on that picture posted for 'She's My Kind of Girl'? It looks so much better when he's fully dressed. I've been amused to see the variations in scoring. I don't usually waste much time on hating things but Watch Out presses all the wrong buttons for me so I'm interested to see that TheDayBeforeYouCame really likes it. Seems like most of my very low scoring songs are out of the way now. I'm not a fan of most of the songs on the first two albums. It's a shame that more people didn't join in but I am expecting the countdown to be fairly conventional. Thanks for all your effort on this Daniel! I'm not amused to see He Is Your Brother out-ranked by Love Isn't Easy and People Need Love. Steward's enquiry! Watch Out has joined Intermezzo No.1 with the biggest points variation so far of 8. It's noticeable how even from the early stuff, each and every song has at least one person who 'quite likes'. Even the worst highest mark has been 5. And clearly there are those who do like many of the Waterloo/Ring Ring tracks judging by the smattering of 8's and 7's even in this early stage of Megarate.
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Post by chron on Oct 24, 2019 0:23:31 GMT
Tie: =93. "Crazy World"
"There's a couple of men in my life, and one of them is my brother Joe." average: 3.5 points (highest score: 7 = No.95, lowest score: 0 = Ginger Spice) =93. "Man in the Middle" from ABBA
"He will drink champagne in his limousine, while the rest of us drink a beer." average: 3.5 points (highest score: 6 = No.95, TheDayBeforeYouCame, Alan, lowest score: 0 = Smugasacat) TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "The same old 'it's musically nice, it's lyrically eh' routine." 92. "Intermezzo No. 1" from ABBAaverage: 3.643 points (highest score: 8 = TheDayBeforeYouCame, lowest score: 0 = Cerulean) 'Intermezzo No. 1' deserves to be higher, it's a great instrumental and I prefer it to 'Arrival'. I see heated debates ahead! Great stuff 91. "Me and Bobby and Bobby's Brother" from Ring Ring
"We found a place in the sun, having our fun." average: 3.714 points (highest score: 7 = Ginger Spice, Flitwick, lowest score: 2 = Hometime, Smugasacat, TheDayBeforeYouCame, Noctum, Foreverfan) TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "Frida sounds nice here." Weird to be seen to be the one waving a flag for some of these early songs (especially as I don't own copies of the Ring Ring or Waterloo albums - Santa Rosa and Åh Vilka Tider were two tracks I had to quickly listen to on YT in order to be in some sort of position to award scores at all!). As I said in an earlier post, I suspect that I haven't been ruthless enough with the early material. That said, I'm happy to give Crazy World a decent rating. I've always liked the little tempo-shift piano motifs done at the start and following the choruses of this very much, and it deserves a sprinkle of points for those bits, if nothing else. I'm glad to see some comments. Heartbroken that none of them are incendiary sideswipes at low-ranking songs, thus triggering hair-pulling and ABBAgeddon in the ensuing comments. Just kidding. I wouldn't want to make Alan cry. His job is hard enough. I'm kinda regretting confining my comments to the songs I ranked 11 - 9. On the other hand, you can all rejoice that you will be spared my "thoughtful prose" until a bit later. Yes, this thread just isn't nasty enough. And it's only going to get nicer. Damn. Should get quite nasty soon. When somebody's favourite gets dumped Intermezzo No.1 an early leader in the Marmite Stakes, with a whopping 8 points spread between a Yay and a Nay, followed jointly by King Kong Song, I Am Just A Girl and Crazy World on 7. I plough a lonely furrow regarding King Kong Song, but 99th place was nevertheless a disappointment. Maybe you had to have been twelve or thirteen when Tiger Feet was Number One to thoroughly appreciate its merits. 90. "Rock Me" from ABBA"Give me that kick, now." average: 3.75 points (highest score: 7 = Ginger Spice, Flitwick, lowest score: 1 = Johnny, Noctum)
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Post by chron on Oct 23, 2019 19:14:35 GMT
Okay, started to put up the 2016 Megarate here.
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Post by chron on Oct 23, 2019 19:12:26 GMT
Okay, edmfio76 would like me to put this up, and I think it's worth keeping somewhere online - it's certainly one of the best polls I've been involved in. Not sure how I'm going to do this yet; first thought is to do the results in small batches of five, or so. My memories of the way this was done have become foggy, but as far as I remember we awarded marks of between 1 and 10 to every song on every ABBA studio album and non-album single. We could award a single 'zero' mark to the track we rated the worst, and were allowed a single mark of 11 to be awarded to the track we thought the best (if this is wrong, I'd be happy for others to bob-in and clarify). Our lists of marks were then submitted to Ginger Spice, who totted up and did the number-crunching. I'll include comments in this, but will leave out the throwaway ones ("Nice picture", etc). I'm also going to leave out things like the dates and times of the postings, with the exception of noting them for the first and last posts. So here we go, a facsimile (more-or-less) edition of the abbaforum 2016 Megarate poll! Unless noted, all posts are Ginger Spice's (hats off to him again for doing all the donkey-work on this). Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:31 am: Here it is folks! The moment you've all been waiting for...the first official ABBA Megarate (on this forum, at least)!
Your votes have been tallied, your voices have been heard! But will your favorite song make it to the top? Keep checking back in to find out! Remember this is all in good fun, so while you are free to voice disagreement with the results of this show, please refrain from insults or personal attacks as our resident security (err, moderator) is standing by. Who's ready to get started??!!!
101. "I Saw It In The Mirror" from Ring Ring
"'Cause something sure is wrong when this boy cries." average: 2.142 points (highest score: 6 = Alan, lowest score: 1 = Cerulean, Gary, Noctum, Johnny, Smugasacat, Foreverfan) The Day Before You Came said, "Girl's harmonies are nice, but song itself ain't." 'I Saw It In The Mirror' is indeed ABBA at their worst! Bottom of the pile but didn't get a zero from anyone. Some consolation there. Damn, so my six points still made no difference! Guessing even if I'd given it 11 it would have still been bottom! 100. "Åh vilka tider""du får kalla det fantasier, men nog är det en dröm man minns" average: 2.571 points (highest score: 5 = Chelseacharger, lowest score: 1 = Hometime, Johnny, Smugasacat, Foreverfan) TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "It's pretty nice sounding, but too meh for me."
99. "King Kong Song" from Waterloo"I was looking at a movie on the TV last night..." average: 2.857 points (highest score: 8 = Shoshin, lowest score: 1 = Hometime, Noctum, Smugasacat, Foreverfan, Flitwick) TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "Stupid subject matter, nice music."
98. "Santa Rosa"
"How I wish this road would take me home where I belong." average: 3 points (highest score: 6 = No.95, lowest score: 1 = Smugasacat) TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "Nice, but could be better. The idea of a bunch of Swedes yearning for California makes me chuckle a bit though."
97. "Merry-Go-Round"
"Who wants to kiss me, and hug me, and miss me?" average: 3.0714 points (highest score: 5 = Chelseacharger, No.95, TheDayBeforeYouCame, Alan, lowest score: 1 = Ginger Spice, Smugasacat) TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "Weird intro." Nice to see that my one pointers are crashing out right in the beginning! Tie:
=95. "Sitting in a Palmtree" from Waterloo
"But I will stay here, among my coconuts." average: 3.357 points (highest score: 6 = Alan, lowest score: 1 = Johnny) TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "Is this something that Swedes do?" =95. "I Am Just a Girl" from Ring Ring
"Darling I can see, I was meant to be your girl." average: 3.357 points (highest score: 7 = TheDayBeforeYouCame, lowest score: 0 = Hometime, Gary) TheDayBeforeYouCame said, "Pretty laid back." Finally! My zero-pointer has been shown the door at last. (And thumbs up to Gary for his excellent judgement!). 'Sitting In the Palmtree' isn't as bad as the others, it's a cute little song. 'I Am Just A Girl' was a strong contender for my zero-pointer, but it lost to 'Man In The Middle'.
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Post by chron on Oct 23, 2019 16:38:59 GMT
Orf, thank you. I'll leave the posting entirely at your discretion. You don't have to post the results if you don't want to. It would be interesting to read each other's thoughts about our favourite ABBA songs. To make clear: I'd just be putting up the 2016 abbaforum Megarate thread up, in order to preserve it, since the forum it featured in is now defunct. Obviously, if it provokes some fresh discussion, that would be good, but this won't be a new poll!
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Post by chron on Oct 22, 2019 14:18:55 GMT
Edmund, a top 100 thing was created on the old forum abba4ever, and there were some amazing posts and analysis shared by fans but unfortunately it folded and there wasn't time to save anything. Such a shame as many fans went to a great deal of effort to compile their favourites listing their often heartfelt reasons. Many people, such as Pablo, posted lengthy thoughts on songs such as The Day Before You Came and Dancing Queen. Brilliantly worded, how I wish I could read their erudite thoughts once again. Oh, well. I don't think I saw the abba4ever Top 100, but I did take part in the Top 100/Megarate poll/countdown that took place in the short-lived abbaforum, which was highly entertaining (it was done in instalments, with pauses left between each 'portion' to let some discussion take place on results already revealed, and let anticipation build about which songs were likely to be fighting it out for the top spots), and threw up some interesting results. Fewer people would've submitted lists for that one, I'm sure, than did so for the abba4ever poll, so the results tended not to be as ironed-out and predictable as they might've been. Since it represented so much work (it was set up and orchestrated by a forumite with the username 'Ginger Spice'), I kept copies of the pages - which I'm happy about, since the Internet Archive hasn't preserved many pages at all from that forum. I could dig them out and post the results, perhaps with one or two comments ('Ginger Spice' asked us to submit some capsule summaries about how/why we liked and disliked our choices). I remember Hometime in particular chipping in with some good lines, and there was quite a healthy back-and-forth over differences of opinion.
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Post by chron on Oct 18, 2019 19:50:25 GMT
Just as some people will always remain impervious to ABBA's charms, as I am immune to The Beatles. There's no changing my mind, anymore than I can change yours about The Winner Takes It All. And I'm not alone in that. Ha! Actually, I'm going to perhaps shock you here by saying that my mind probably could be changed about The Winner Takes It All. I think if I could shut myself away and clear my mind, and just focus on listening to the song without thinking about its standing amongst ABBA fans, and how much it's become one of ABBA's chief calling-cards, I might come to appreciate it more. I can't see it ever becoming a favourite, and I honestly don't think it's on the same level of achievement as KMKY and The Name Of The Game and Dancing Queen, but I could grow to acknowledge the skilful way it was put together more. Another way in for me with that song would be for someone to do an engaging formal analysis of TWTIA, one that makes you appreciate the thinking and work that went into it more. Howard Goodall once did some good analyses of this sort for the Sgt. Pepper tracks, and the Open University, believe it or not, once used to run a music programme that spent part of its time breaking-down and analysing the instrumental make-up of When I'm Sixty-Four, making you marvel at how strange and quaint the backing arrangement actually is on that.
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Post by chron on Oct 18, 2019 19:28:47 GMT
On a positive Note, The British Phonographic Industry, (The BPI), has today given the 'Mamma Mia' Single a Gold Sales Award. It is on top of its 400,000+ Sales in 1976. The New Sales Award is for UK Downloads & Streaming since November 2004. It is for 400,000 Sales. Before 1st January 1989, a UK Gold Single had to sell 500,000 or more. Since then it has been 400,000. ABBA also got a new UK Sales Award for 'Dancing Queen', in June. That was a Platinum Award, for 600,000+ UK Sales, since November 2004. UK Platinum Singles had to reach 1,000,000 Sales, before January 1989... How does this all work in the streaming age? People used to buy a one copy of a single or album, and I suppose all of these one-off unit purchases would be totted up, but without the physical artefact, people stream as and when, and will obviously 'revisit the well' and stream a track multiple times. Does every single instance of streaming count as one unit shifted? What if people don't listen all the way through to the track they've chosen to stream? Could figures be bumped up by people repeatedly starting a stream and then stopping, starting and stopping? Also in the old days, sales figures took a much smaller hit from people cassette-taping music and so on, than they do today from torrenting and so on. Surely such figures collected in an era in which wide-scale samizdat acquisition goes on don't really give a meaningful 'picture' of consumption, or necessarily give a fully accurate indication of an artist's popularity?
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Post by chron on Oct 18, 2019 18:11:22 GMT
Their music has definitely dated. Of course they were talented but their songs could often be very basic and repetitive. That depends on whether or not you have them forever pegged as the mop-tops who sang about "holding hands." Most of us here know how frustrating it is to hear ABBA still being effectively dismissed as peddlers of Euro-kitsch, when they developed into so much more; well, that frustration for me gets sized-up many times over when the Beatles get similarly damned with similar faint praise (often by ABBA fans, for some strange reason). The Beatles played a big part in creating the pop cultural landscape that we know and enjoy and live with, and it's sometimes hard to credit the approaches and innovations they helped bring about, since they're now taken for granted. The speed with which they left behind their basic 'rock-skiffle' boy-meets-girl pop beginnings, to create songs that dealt with frustration, uncertainty, guilt, paranoia, rejection, regret, alienation, social issues, the search for deeper meaning, and all served up in a wide range of styles, can still make you shake your head. The ground they covered, given the ages they were and the social class they came from, and the speed at which they covered it, given things like the technical limitations of studios they were working in, will likely never be equalled (anything in the future of similar import will have to happen in a way that most of us can't currently conceive of). George Harrison was just twenty-six(!) when the Beatles called it a day, and the other three were under thirty; Benny and Bjorn served a far more plodding apprenticeship, and were pushing thirty before producing the first of their true stone pop classics (I take the self-titled 1975 album to be the one where they really announced themselves as a force), and by then were doing it in studios equipped with large, multi-track consoles. Go and listen to Strawberry Fields or A Day In The Life or I Am The Walrus, and then remind yourself that the Beatles were producing music as dense and experimental and complex as that with very limited equipment (the Beach Boys were doing similarly brilliant things with the same equipment by the mid-sixties, but they'd been spurred on to go the extra experimental mile by the creative example of the Beatles, effectively 'competing' with them, as Brian Wilson has said). Harrison going off to study with Ravi Shankar and then feeding that back into his and the others' songs; John meeting and collaborating with Yoko, an artist right in the thick of the New York Fluxus/performance art scene; Paul collecting 'kinetic art' sculptures by Takis and attending concert performances by the experimental improvising avant-garde group AMM; keeping abreast of what Stockhausen and co. were doing in at Darmstadt and at the WDR Studio; working with a renowned fashion photographer like Robert Freeman or fine artists such as Peter Blake, Jann Howarth and Richard Hamilton, to help transform the album cover into something that could be considered a work of art in itself; in the end their appetite for new and different art forms, and their openness to change and willingness to depart from the known and/or accepted paths in order to see where chance and experimentation might take them, makes them the case apart they are.
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Post by chron on Oct 14, 2019 16:36:01 GMT
As I've made clear in the past, I don't hold much truck with numbers [...] [Q]uality over quantity every time. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if that Gangnam Style song had millions/billions of views but it's patently rubbish. I feel the same way. When and if Queen, or any other act, supersedes the Beatles in terms of sales stats, it won't suddenly make them a more important band, because you don't measure artistic achievement and cultural impact in sales statistics or sheer popular reach alone. The changes the Beatles wrought, within the popular music scene initially but ultimately far beyond that realm, were unprecedented and epochal (one tiny example: if the Beatles had never been, then two guys working fairly happily within the bounds of the Swedish folk scene would never have become the pop writers and performers they became, as they themselves have made clear many times). And that's said as someone who likes and admires the Beatles' music a great deal, but who is far from being an exclusive or blinded überfan. I think that claim about their singular significance can be made as good as objectively; it will likely never be matched, at least not for a long, long time. That said, you also have artists who've enjoyed relatively little commercial success, but whose influence is more far-reaching than others who've shifted tonnage; e.g. the Velvet Underground, about whose first album Brian Eno famously said "[It] only sold 10,000 copies, but everyone who bought a copy formed a band." This almost OCD focus on sales figures mystifies me, I have to say; who sold what and where and to whom is just about the dullest aspect of music, for me.
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Post by chron on Oct 13, 2019 23:28:14 GMT
Orf -- In 1995 when 'Free As a Bird' was released by The Beatles, it was all over TV News in the UK. The News Readers went on as if it was the greatest 'Music News' ever, and parts of the Videos were shown. The fact that the Single was not very good was totally ignored. I remember there being a big anticipatory buzz as the release of Free As A Bird was announced, which was inevitable, given that this was the most influential pop band ever making a come-back of sorts (I was certainly excited as I settled down to listen to it for the first time); it was huge 'Music News', but that's a different business from the reviews and evaluations. I can't remember anyone in the press going ape, or claiming that it was anywhere close to being as good as their best work. A look at the Critical Reception section of Free As A Bird's Wiki would seem to bear this out: "'Free as a Bird' was greeted with mixed reviews. Its release was criticised by Caroline Sullivan in The Guardian as a publicity gimmick, exploiting the Beatles brand, and owing less to the Beatles than to [Jeff] Lynne. Andy Gill in The Independent called the song "disappointingly low-key. ...George's guitar weeps gently enough when required, but the overall effect is of a dirge." Ian MacDonald, writer of Revolution in the Head, declared it to be a "dreary song" that stood no comparison with the Beatles' sixties music. Chris Carter, now the host of Breakfast with the Beatles, commented: "I would value any song (especially if it was great) performed by John, Paul, George and Ringo, no matter how (or when) it was recorded."
The Chris Carter comment sums up why most people valued Free As A Bird: because all four Beatles had, in effect, had a hand in creating it. Neither Free As A Bird nor Real Love were considered any great shakes as songs in themselves, nor were they ever going to be, having been 'grown' of necessity from bad quality home demos of songs that Lennon himself hadn't considered good enough at the time to work into proper tracks. McCartney and co. were probably wise not to take the Bjorn route and trumpet the advent of these songs months and years before they appeared; they knew that Free As A Bird wasn't in the same league as Strawberry Fields, and that Real Love was no A Day In The Life. All things considered, they did a pretty good job of managing public expectation.
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Post by chron on Oct 13, 2019 18:36:47 GMT
Also, we must expect the Global Media to examine every Note of the New ABBA Songs. The build up has gone on for so long, that the Media will be expecting ABBA's very best 'Work'. They will look for the least thing, as an excuse to criticise the Songs. This is because no huge 'Living' Group has ever returned, after 35+ Years, with New Singles. It is quite unique for ABBA to do it. The Beatles returned in 1995 and 1996, with 'Free As A Bird' and 'Real Love', but John Lennon was dead, and the 2 Songs were really unused John Lennon Demos, that the other 3 Beatles turned into Singles. They had added more vocals & instrumentation. In my view, neither Single was very good, but the Media went on as if they were 'Classics', just because it was The Beatles. ('Free As A Bird' was a UK No.2 Hit and 'Real Love' reached No.4). Queen worked on a Freddie Mercury Demo, in 1995 - 'Heaven For Everyone'. That was almost 4 Years after Freddie died. That was not the best Song by Queen, either, It became a Global Hit, due to it being Queen. It was a UK No.2 Hit. The Media pretended that, that was terrific, too. In a perfect(ly objective) world, the deaths of John Lennon and Freddie Mercury shouldn't and wouldn't have affected the critical receptions of the Beatles and Queen releases, but as it is/was, they probably unavoidably exerted an influence. If ABBA at this point were coming back with reworked archive material that featured a performance by one of its members now dead, then perhaps they'd be cut a similar amount of slack? That all said, I don't in any case remember people going overboard about Free As A Bird and Free Love (can't comment of the reception of the Queen track, since I have zero interest in their music and wouldn't have been taking the slightest notice). I'd have to trawl through old reviews and whatnot to be sure, but certainly Ian MacDonald, in the second edition of his influential Revolution In The Head (which came out in the extended wake of the 'new' tracks), was really quite dismissive of both of those tracks. So I don't think 'the Media' were necessarily 'pretending' that any of these Beatles/Queen tracks were 'terrific', anymore than I think that they'll have some sort of axe to grind re. the new ABBA material, because of all the delays.
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Post by chron on Oct 1, 2019 2:18:23 GMT
I'd agree that it's highly unlikely that B&B consciously planned and shaped Voulez-Vous to end up as a concept album; I just thought it would be interesting to ponder to what degree it could be imagined as being one, by design, or unintentionally, or just in the head of the listener. As you say, HT, Chiquitita is the other track that you'd struggle to fit into the concept album framework. I thought it could just about be interpreted as a kind of post-night-out come-down counting-the-cost track, about someone who's been hurt while out for the evening being consoled and pepped-up by a friend or former flame ("You'll be dancing once again, and the pain will end"); a big stretch-to-fit, as I say, and musically different ballpark (it sure ain't a 'chill' disco track). I Have A Dream, though, is a non-starter from every angle.
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Post by chron on Sept 29, 2019 15:15:04 GMT
Personally, I don't agree that Voulez-Vous is a shallower album. The two ballads aside, I think the arrangements/production make for a more cohesive set. I think it's lyrically stronger than its predecessor. [...] I think the lyrics on the Voulez-Vous album generally are more revealing on a personal level. IIWFTN is brutally sad: essentially a lonely diary entry stapled to a dance-to-forget track delivered with a real urgency, as though singing though a gritted teeth smile, eyes wide to stop the formation of tears. I'd put it on a par with One Man, One Woman;for emotional impact. The Voulez-Vous protagonist is jaded and cynical. The Angeleyes central character is so wounded that her schadenfreude in The King Has Lost His Crown is like a release [...] Fair come-back and fine points made. I haven't listened to Voulez-Vous from start-to-finish in ages (I sometimes think I'm not an ABBA fan so much as a fan of Arrival/The Album. I still play those two regularly, and The Visitors gets a spin out now and then, but the other albums hardly get listened to as albums any more, if they ever were – I just cherry pick the odd track, as-and-when), so my view of it is coloured by memories that have probably become fogged. I think that V-V is a good album, its 'misfortune,' if you like, was in having to follow something as realised and musically satisfying and jewel-dotted with stone classic tracks as The Album. They certainly made a brave choice in appropriating and absorbing disco in order to produce a quite different and self-contained follow up, rather than aiming to serve up some sort of ABBA The Album Part II. But here's one to bowl at you: you suggest that it opting to go the route they did on V-V, they were balking at creating a "full-on concept album", but can a case not be made for V-V being a 'full' concept album of sorts? It contains a set of tracks loosely connected together by a binding theme: affluent urbanites with a taste for the good life (ABBA, or an imagined version of themselves), enjoying the perks and spoils of the studio/concert hall-bubble/night-on-the-town/living-in-and-for-the-moment lifestyle, but doing so with the shadow of early middle-age encroaching, with all the changes that that will bring (this 'next stage of life' isn't touched on that much in V-V; it lurks spectrally - on Super Trouper and The Visitors they'd go on to explore the theme of slowing down/getting older, and the various kinds of loss that accompany that process, more fully). If you factor in associated/in-the-running-at-one-point-for-inclusion track Summer Night City, it's not so much of a stretch to see it that way. The only track which is awkwardly square-peg round-hole is I Have A Dream (but then, that's a song you'd have trouble finding the right spot for on any album. It's a bit of a momentum killer on V-V, and I can't think of another ABBA album that it would bed into well; maybe it would make a decent sub for TYFTM on The Album?). In other words, then (sorry for the ramble!) did ABBA in fact follow up The Album with a concept album, and did choosing to flirt with the then current fad of disco hinder comprehension of this - was the deeper theme 'hiding in plain sight' (dressed in a 'Travolta suit', frugging with abandon underneath a rotating glitter ball)? I'm sure some glaring holes can be picked in this (this reading of V-V is built on foggy memories, remember), but that's fine; It's nice to have a bit of back-and-forth to keep us ticking over while we wait for the new songs to appear. Have at it!
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Post by chron on Sept 28, 2019 13:28:24 GMT
One minute they were considering (and by 'they' I'm not really differentiating between ABBA, Stig and the record companies) releasing 'Eagle' on a proper, global basis, which might have nudged them a little further along the 'true path'. The next they were 'dumbing down' by mucking around with the only partially successful (both artistically and commercially) SNC and then retrenching even further with VV. Eagle is the main paradigm-shifter on The Album. Placed right at the start in order to make mouths drop open, from that opening cosmic 'whoosh' onwards, if that track doesn't say to you "this isn't really the same group that clumped around in glitter for Eurovision anymore", nothing will. It's the track where they pull the stops out and make something as crafted and dense and layered as some of the best AOR sophisto-rock of the same period. If it can't force an ABBA 'non-believer' into expressing a little surprise and grudging praise at least, then their misconceptions have been ossified into stone. Also very much agree with what Hometime suggests about KMKY being a pointer on the Arrival album to the mature blossoming we'd get on The Album (I'd also include That's Me alongside it. For all its supposedly having something of the schlagers about it, I've always found it a surprisingly tough and sardonic track, with a tone that's quite odd and hard to peg. Including a 'daringly' stately, almost mournful instrumental (albeit with vox still featuring) at the end of Arrival, is also a brave and progressive step).
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Post by chron on Sept 28, 2019 0:02:30 GMT
A key problem is that the overwhelming 'folk memory' of ABBA's heyday, in the eyes of the vast majority of the public (whether based on first-hand memories or received wisdom), is of a lightweight (though highly skilled) pop act whose only real currency was chart success. They never had any 'credibility' as such, even in the way that other mega-selling acts of the 1970s (such as Rod Stewart, trading on his Faces pedigree and first few solo albums up to and including 'Never a Dull Moment', or Queen, based on their pre-'Night at the Opera' heavy-ish rock roots) had. I suppose ABBA fleetingly had just a little of that 'cred' when TWTIA came out, but that immediately evaporated when 'Super Trouper' followed it to the top of the charts. I think they may've had an 'on-the-verge-of-cred' moment earlier than TWTIA, with ABBA The Album. The Album's association with The Movie did it no favours, but on its own terms it was, by a distance, the most finely-polished, ambitious and immersive work they'd done up to that point, arguably holding on to that status until the release of The Visitors (I still think that, by and large, The Album is the 'heaviest' album they did). Even its cover art was quirkily cool and stylish and distinctive. If, after The Album, they'd made a consolidating album in the same sort of vein, pushing some of the themes and musical ideas a bit further, they might've found a full-on misconception-correcting amount of critical praise flowing their way. Instead, they chose to serve up their own swish brand of disco, producing a glitzy and urbane but decadent and more shallow album than the one before it (Chiquitita and TKHLHC notwithstanding); a bit of a wander into a cul-de-sac, as things turned out.
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Post by chron on Sept 25, 2019 18:10:21 GMT
I think you can still get back to the magic of the song, if you listen to it in the right way, in isolation. The fact is, though, that Mamma-Mia the phenomenon is never going away. If we ever get the sort of restrained, in-depth, considered documentary film on ABBA that we talked about above, all paths in it, no matter how minutely examined by the film, will eventually lead to the "breathtaking [or whatever] success story" of the Mamma Mia show and spin-offs, squatting like a great big glittery boulder in the road.
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Post by chron on Sept 25, 2019 17:53:02 GMT
Plus, isn't Bjorn mates with Cowell, and all that lot? They're all ITV.
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Post by chron on Sept 25, 2019 17:49:51 GMT
Others will be more sure of the facts, but when ABBA were still a working group, I seem to remember that most of their appearances and specials were broadcast by the BBC. In recent years, though, the ABBA-related programmes mostly seem to have appeared on on ITV or Channel 5, or sometimes Channel 4, probably the upshot of Bjorn and co. granting rights to the highest bidder, which invariably turns out be one of the commercial channels. In other words, I don't think it's a case of the BBC not liking ABBA, it's more a case of them not being able to afford them anymore.
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Post by chron on Sept 24, 2019 22:23:11 GMT
[L]ove or loathe the whole MM thing, it has pushed ABBA's music right back into the spotlight and kept it there. Yes, it would be nice if ABBA were referenced more readily in thoughtful, chin-stroking documentaries. Yes, ABBA is long overdue a "classic album" focus ( Arrival and The Visitors for me, please). Yes, it would be nice if tribute shows didn't focus so tightly on the kitschy costumes and sexist nonsense. We're slowly getting there and I think it'd take a proper cover by a serious artist to become a hit before people will start looking under the sequins and platforms at the beautiful heart of the music. Do you not feel we may've been closer to getting there before Mamma Mia and spin-offs hit the fan? Keep riding (or getting others to ride, more accurately) the camp and corny carousel for too long and people begin to stop caring that you were ever a band that made the sort of mature, bittersweet, sophisto-pop that appeared on some albums thirty-five-to-forty-odd years ago. Maybe you need to leave the spotlight to the youngsters and newbies and stop desecrating your back catalogue by making people associate it with the characters and plot lines of kitsch stage shows and films and 'parties', in order to create the space and the peace and quiet for the reappraisals and the more considered, more deep-going features and documentaries to happen in.
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Post by chron on Sept 24, 2019 0:40:17 GMT
I can tell you some people who dislike ABBA. Katie Price for one, Will Young for another. " Who are they ? " " Never heard of them " Where did you find out that those two don't like ABBA? Is that what the two of them came out with, when asked about the group: "Who are they?" "Never heard of them."?
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Post by chron on Sept 23, 2019 18:20:58 GMT
Being grateful for the prospect of new songs shouldn't necessarily mean that one should let those things that ransack the dignity of the group (if that's what one feels they do) go uncriticised. ABBA still have a special aura around them, but it's not as special as it would have been, had the long lay-off between the last recordings and these new ones not been periodically disrupted by all the tacky good-time stuff. Maybe the new songs will be so good, they'll help bury the memory of some of that.
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Post by chron on Sept 23, 2019 2:43:01 GMT
I also want to say something about all those fans who didn't like Mamma Mia1 film, and Mamma Mia2 film, and the musical, and Mamma Mia the Party, and actually thought that it should never have happened. Those fans actually say: "Björn (sometimes also Benny), I don't want you to want, what YOU want". Turn that around. How would that feel if someone else said that about you, about what YOU want .... As an artist, if you parade what you do in public, and make it a product and ask money for it, people get to judge its quality and usefulness. Organise for a behind-closed-doors private performance of a musical based on songs you've written if you want to see one badly enough, but don't want to risk hearing people question the wisdom of the idea, and the quality of the outcome. Don't make a cash-in. In terms of everyone else: the problem with the sort of respect-every-weed-for-being-a-plant attitude you allude to is that, taken far enough, it serves to discourage and shut down meaningful (read: interesting) discussion and debate (the prospect of meeting so that you can all agree, in so many different words, that the weather's nice isn't a thrilling one for some), and, if practised on the 'net in particular, undermines one of the best things to come out of online socialisation. As long as people aren't personally abusive, and are prepared to think about and try and articulate why they feel the way they do about something if asked - be constructively but flexibly critical - then disagreements and differences of opinion are not only fine, they're desirable and necessary. I don't have an in-depth knowledge of Mamma Mia and its permutations, but have been exposed to enough to know, that at base it's a trite, kitsch, parasitical exercise in 'feel good' cynicism, and it would be impossible for this fan of ABBA's music to sit through the show or films from beginning to end. That all said, I don't hold ABBA especially responsible for the monster that has become Mamma Mia (although someone by now ought be thinking about applying a shepherd's crook to Bjorn's neck!), since as far as I can tell they weren't the principle driving force behind it; they authorised it and are the 'glue' at the top. Personally, I think they should've seen what was coming and said 'No' to all of it (being more than wealthy enough for it not to matter), but ultimately they're not directly responsible for Julie Walters hamming it up, or Stellan Skarsgard's horrible singing (if he does sing, as I've indicated, I've never seen either film in toto). At the end of the day the film renditions of the songs are just more cover versions, with an extra coating of 'yuck.' Saying the Mamma Mia phenomenon is execrable, and wondering if it won't have a damaging effect on ABBA's artistic legacy in the long run, isn't criticising the band or its music, it's criticising the service they and it have been put to.
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Post by chron on Sept 21, 2019 18:03:02 GMT
Nice! Essentially the original announcement, though, isn't it ("Amazing being back in the studio, like we never left", etc.), with the number of songs hiked up to five? And he's still being coy (maybe more so than before). He's still toying with the heads of those ABBA fans who focus on the band almost to the exclusion of anything else. Bin the announcements saying get ready for further announcements, Bjorn!
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Post by chron on Sept 19, 2019 2:47:04 GMT
Well, Björn was on the itv news earlier talking about that Mamma Mia party malarkey and was asked about the new songs. He says they were in the studio RECENTLY but that the other three don't want him to say anything more. Misread that initially as "the other three don't want him to stay anymore", and I was like, "Yeah, well it's not surprising. He's turned into 'Mr ABBA' - he's got so many fingers in so many pies, I bet he's never in the studio long enough to make a meaningful contribution; always jetting off to park his arse on another TV studio sofa to have a natter about Mamma Mia The Party. Probably hasn't kept up his guitar chops (such as they were), either.."
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Post by chron on Sept 18, 2019 20:08:18 GMT
You really need to hear what these new tracks sound like, before you can build for them, so to speak, a suitable compilation setting. But it terms of a title and artwork approach, I'd really like them to come up with something surprising and self-contained and not nodding too much in the direction of past designs - ditch the metallic stuff and that crown of "stalks" logo, maybe even - shock horror - withhold the reversed Bs band logo, or at least reduce it greatly in size. Be surprising, create a classic-to-be, one that doesn't rely on or seem too much of a continuation of already established values, something empty and full at the same time, defiant but accepting.
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Post by chron on Sept 18, 2019 4:54:43 GMT
Which prompts one to think of a certain Bond book/film and thus suggests a punning ABBA Are Forever - still lame, but better than Diamonds!
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Post by chron on Sept 18, 2019 1:25:07 GMT
Graham Norton just said “sort of true” or “close to true” so it doesn’t mean it would be called ABBA Platinum. That bit was clearly a joke. Yeah, well it would be clearer if they hadn't already actually used Gold and then More Gold, indicating that they're not only inclined to use a lamely expedient title, they're prepared to spawn variants from same! I'd love to believe that a spiffed-up/bolstered ABBA compilation wouldn't be given a title like ABBA Platinum, but it wouldn't shock me too much if one was; there's no denying that as a title it's simple, sequential, blandly effective (locking the band name in with the title, along with its connotations), and smacks of corporate slickness and growth, all things which seem to majorly float Bjorn's boat, these days.
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