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Post by madonnabba on Oct 14, 2018 12:47:28 GMT
Not sure if this has been done before. Which song do you think has aged well and still feels fresh today? There are lots and some that were very much of the time but I would choose The Name of the Game. One that has not , Thankyou for the Music.
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Post by foreverfan on Oct 14, 2018 18:08:10 GMT
If we are going by single releases (UK) , then it's hard to move away from ^^, TNOTG is timeless, and TFTM has aged badly probably as it's now classed as cheesy. Some tracks have been played to death, like Waterloo, Mamma Mia, even Dancing Queen, a few are stuck in their own time zone, like Lay All Your Love On Me, Voulez Vous, others have transcended thanks to remix/ other artists, Gimme Gimme Gimme for instance. I would have said Fernando being really out dated, but thanks yes thanks to Cher, it can sound good in the present. Overall and I can't believe I'm saying this..  , I do think ABBA in general is in over kill and there's to much around at the moment, bring on the new stuff .. |
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Post by gary on Oct 14, 2018 19:46:52 GMT
I don't expect anyone on here to agree with me, but I think ABBA are much more likely to be remembered for their 'middle' period - essentially the singles from SOS to Chiquitita - than they are for their earlier stuff or later stuff. The only exceptions to this are Waterloo, The Winner Takes It All and (maybe) One Of Us. The singles from Does Your Mother Know onwards are (apart from TWTIA and OOU) considerably inferior to the perfection of the 'middle' period, and sound much less 'fresh'. Roughly the same is true of their albums too. Arrival and The Album are pretty much perfect, whereas all the other albums have weaker spots and sound less inspired (much as I still like the Voulez-Vous and Super Trouper albums a lot).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 20:11:47 GMT
In terms of singles, I'd broadly agree - but I think their indisputable white-hot run ended with TACOM.
I reckon KMKY holds up particularly well. And DQ, actually, for some counter-intuitive reason.
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Post by gary on Oct 16, 2018 0:30:49 GMT
Yes, extending the ‘essential’ run to include Summer Night City and Chiquitita is possibly being a bit too generous, but I know Chiquitita is very highly thought of in some parts of the world. (Personally, I think SNC is very underrated, and would be more highly considered if it had been included on Gold, as it should have been!)
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Post by Michal on Oct 16, 2018 15:06:02 GMT
Not sure if this has been done before. Which song do you think has aged well and still feels fresh today? There are lots and some that were very much of the time but I would choose The Name of the Game. One that has not , Thankyou for the Music. I've never really thought about the ABBA songs (or indeed any songs) that way… for me it't either like it or not. Probably I don't understand what's trendy, as I've never quite taken in comments such as I Won't Let You Go sounding dated even at the time of its release... |
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Post by foreverfan on Oct 16, 2018 15:20:32 GMT
Alas for Agnetha and Frida, as much as I like some of the solo tracks, I feel none have transcended time well and are stuck in their own era.....
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Post by Michal on Oct 17, 2018 17:55:06 GMT
I still don't see what's wrong if an 80s song sounds like an 80s song  Actually, many people are fans of the 60s, 70s or 80s and they probably have their reasons… |
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Post by foreverfan on Oct 17, 2018 17:59:56 GMT
I could listen to 60s 70s 80s and some 90s all day long , so much better than today's rubbish... in my opinion ironically ^^ I Won't Let You Go is one of my Agnetha favourites.... |
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Post by Zeebee on Oct 18, 2018 20:46:39 GMT
Yes, extending the ‘essential’ run to include Summer Night City and Chiquitita is possibly being a bit too generous, but I know Chiquitita is very highly thought of in some parts of the world. (Personally, I think SNC is very underrated, and would be more highly considered if it had been included on Gold, as it should have been!) You didn't mention Does Your Mother Know, which was a bigger hit than SNC or Chiquitita. |
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Post by gary on Oct 19, 2018 8:58:34 GMT
^ See my earlier post. I wasn't talking about whether a single was a big hit or not. I was talking about whether (in my opinion, obviously) a single was a great song or not. And in my opinion, Does Your Mother Know is where the quality of ABBA's singles started declining quite significantly.
Anyway, I think you might be referring to DYMK's US chart position. Worldwide, Chiquitita was a far bigger hit than DYMK.
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Post by foreverfan on Oct 19, 2018 10:40:02 GMT
Personally..
Each single has its place in time, yes you can have Golden periods,( UK was from SOS, 1975 to 80) but it doesn't necessarily mean that other tracks were not of a standard to the time they were released, take I Do.. and LAYLOM, absolutely miles apart but ok for the time of release...so it has to be from ones own perspective, so therefore from a UK angle I think the wrong releases are ...
Does Your Mother Know..... should have been flipped to Kisses Of Fire or As Good As New.
Under Attack.... Just Like That ?
ThankYou For The Music... Just should never have been released in 83 , 78 possibly.....but even then better tracks on The Album...
I could add I Have A Dream, not a track I particularly like , but for a Christmas single it was perfect, as nothing else was available.
its not to say I don't like the above, I just think better choices could have been made, and more of them.. then that's another story...😀
Again I deviate from Intial topic, sorry. But sometimes it adds to discussion....
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Post by gary on Oct 19, 2018 11:30:01 GMT
^ All true!
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Post by Michal on Oct 20, 2018 9:06:12 GMT
Does Your Mother Know..... should have been flipped to Kisses Of Fire or As Good As New. I finally have some time to read the updated version of The Complete Recording Sessions and yesterday I read a chapter about these songs. There are a few interesting facts... firstly, Björn seems to be quite fond of Does Your Mother Know, even if he admits it should have been sung by one of the girls. Imagine that it was over 6 minutes long originally, featuring two improvized guitar solos by Lasse Wellander. Unfortunately they were edited out of the final version. Benny seems to be quite keen on Kisses Of Fire up to these days but he is quoted saying that As Good As New is "an unnecessary song". IMO it is one of those songs that sound good even today (to get back to the topic 
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Post by shoshin on Oct 20, 2018 21:24:29 GMT
Does Your Mother Know..... should have been flipped to Kisses Of Fire or As Good As New. ...Björn seems to be quite fond of Does Your Mother Know...
Speaks volumes  |
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Post by gary on Oct 21, 2018 9:26:41 GMT
^ Shoshin, I am still awaiting your thesis on why Does Your Mother Know is ABBA’s worst song! You promised!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 15:21:07 GMT
I've never been a big Fan of 'Does Your Mother Know'. Once ABBA had realised that the Group worked
better with Agnetha & Frida on lead vocals, there was no need to - ever - have any further Tracks with
either Benny or Bjorn on lead.
I see the release of 'Does Your Mother Know' as ABBA's attempt to 'show off' a bit, and to say, 'We can
do Rock Music too!'. It also comes across as Bjorn, trying to look 'cool', by singing a song about a young
female finding him 'sexy'. ABBA did not need to go in such a silly direction. It was not really their image.
'Does Your Mother Know' did reach No.1, (3 Weeks), in one Pan European Singles Chart and No.2 in the
other one, but it was not one of ABBA's biggest International Hits. In the UK it was No.4, but that was not
great for ABBA, after so many Top 3 Hits. The same situation in West Germany, where they only reached
No.10 with it. A truly awful Peak for ABBA, in that Country. (They disliked 'Voulez-Vous' even more - No.14).
I'd have released 'As Good As New' instead of 'Does Your Mother Know'. It would have been a far bigger UK
& West German Hit. It would have also given the 'Voulez-Vous' Album a better start than 'Does Your Mother
Know' did. Due to the Single not being truly huge, it caused the Album to have lower Sales than every ABBA
Album after 'ABBA'. 'Voulez-Vous' sold 800,000 in the UK. 'Arrival' had sold almost 1,700,000 and 'The Album'
over 1,100,000. It does affect the Sales of an Album, if people are not at all sure what to make of the Single
that you release at the same time...('The Album' dropped in UK Sales, faster than it should have, due to ABBA
not releasing 'Eagle' in the UK. Another 'ABBA Mistake').
'Kisses Of Fire' is a 'Classic ABBA' Track, and it was a huge shame that it was made the 'B' Side, of 'Does Your
Mother Know'. It was certainly far more, of the type of Top 3 Hit, that ABBA usually released...
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Post by gary on Oct 21, 2018 20:17:53 GMT
^ Agree. Except If It Wasn’t For The Nights should have followed up Chiquitita!
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Post by Michal on Oct 22, 2018 14:59:30 GMT
^ Do you really think that If It Wasn't For The Nights would have been a good single? I've always seen it as a great album track but I think I wouldn't have worked as a single A-side. Both As Good As New and Kisses Of Fire are stronger IMHO. As for Does Your Mother Know, I would also like to read Shoshin's analysis of the song I think there are far worse songs in ABBA catalogue. I like it, but it would have certainly benefited from a leadvocal by Agnetha or Frida. |
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Post by gary on Oct 23, 2018 11:42:43 GMT
^ Yes, I think If It Wasn’t For The Nights is one of the great missed single opportunities! Don’t forget it was intended to be the first single from the Voulez-Vous album, but then they came up with Chiquitita. The choice of Chiquitita can’t be criticised, given it’s one of their biggest sellers, but IIWFTN would have made a great, and contrasting, follow up. Basically, I think they were spoilt for choice of singles from that album, but made the wrong choices in DYMK and VV. I certainly agree that Kisses Of Fire and As Good As New would have made fine singles. Anyway, it’s a bit old hat now!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2018 10:48:34 GMT
I'm on the 'IIWFTT wouldn't have made a great single' side of the argument, I'm afraid. And no way would it have been a UK no.1, in my view. The problem with all the singles lifted from VV - and indeed tracks such as KOF and AGAN - was that, while generally good-to-great songs, none is a 'perfect single' in the way that all ABBA's releases were from SOS to TACOM. Competing with your own back catalogue is one of the toughest challenges in music, I reckon.
Hard to imagine that B&B at any point really believed that DYMK was exactly what was needed to propel them back to the top spot in the UK singles chart after a relatively fallow year. A fun B-side, or a bit of frothy album filler tucked away two-thirds of the way through Side 2 - that's about its level, in my book. Selected as a single, it made ABBA look a bit naff at a time when they were needed to reverse a slight dip in fortunes, so the timing couldn't have been worse really. Especially after they'd definitely 'grown' and displayed a maturer side on 'The Album', it really felt like a massive retrograde step. (SNC and Chiquitita had already created the impression that ABBA were no longer moving forward.) It's only when TWTIA came along that they really seemed to be progressing and evolving again.
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Post by Alan on Oct 24, 2018 22:21:00 GMT
I know I don’t post much these days but I thought I’d try my hand at this one.
I’m with thisboycries here. That run from SOS to Take A Chance On Ms is flawless. It perhaps could only have gone down from there (and it did). The Winner Takes It All was the exception, and perhaps The Day Before You Came (regardless of the latter’s unsuitability as a single). The Voulez-Vous and related singles are where the rot set in.
Even Eagle had some uncertainty over it, hence why the UK and US decided not to go with it. It would undoubtedly have gone top 5 based on ABBA’s overall popularity at the time, but I doubt it would have troubled the number 1 or 2 spots (and top 3 is pushing it).
Ignoring Summer Night City (everything but the kitchen sink was thrown at that, and still it didn’t work), I’ve always understood/assumed there was some “master plan” at work. Björn and Benny/Stig/Polar had these worldwide major record companies as licensees and surely made the decision on singles based on what these companies were telling them (and each company would have its own ways of getting feedback from music industry insiders in their territories).
If this was the case then we can only assume that reaction to If It Wasn’t For The Nights was lukewarm at best. If ABBA liked it but appeared to go off the idea then there has to be a reason. I don’t buy that Chiquitita/UNICEF came along and it was just that that put paid to IIWFTN’s chances.
The “master plan” was clearly failing them at this point if the companies were telling them Does Your Mother Know was a great idea. However, I do hold that it was a risk. Wider audiences hadn’t heard Björn on lead vocals before, and the subject matter was somewhat “adult”. It’s perfectly fine for an act in ABBA’s position at that point to take a risk and do something a little different.
However, things still weren’t going right and with CBS/Epic apparently and openly disagreeing with the decision to go with Voulez-Vous (and ABBA themselves providing no support for Angeleyes whatsoever) there was clearly some friction. CBS did have the last laugh as they managed to make the Angeleyes-led double-A side a bigger hit than most countries made of V-V alone but it all proved that nothing was unanimous and singles from this album were hard to pick.
And it never fully recovered from there. You had CBS once again going it alone (or near enough) with Lay All Your Love On Me (again with no help from ABBA or their management, with even the daft stipulation from them that it could only be released on 12” even though there was no 12” mix). Then there was Atlantic and RCA going with When All Is Said and Done while others went for the derided Head Over Heels.
Yep, I think it’s safe to say that the classic period was indeed from SOS to Take A Chance On Me. Before and after had their moments, but not nearly enough of them, hence the disagreements the record companies had. I don’t think different single choices from Voulez-Vous would have made much difference. None of the tracks were weak, but none that strong either.
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Post by foreverfan on Oct 25, 2018 7:12:57 GMT
^^^^Its a good perspective, I guess we the ABBA fans tend to look back with as they say with rose coloured spectacles ( better than it really was ) , and of course all of this is in hind sight and personal views.
The discussion will of course carry on, and very few if any will know the truth of how singles were chosen, but as above not to far from the truth, but that's not to say that some of those choices were wrong or mis guided. It's easy these days to say that should've been released , but they were different times, usually no more than 2 or 3 tracks at most were singles, until Voulez Vous came along, which was unusual, to be followed by Super Trouper arguably a better album , back down to 2 singles and the odd territory getting LAYLOM.
Back to DYMK , it was a huge risk at the time when we consider the other available tracks to choose from, one has to question why / who made that decision ( from a personal point of view I quite like it ) . In chart place terms a relative flop, if you can call a top 5 single a flop, here in the UK, but sold over 250, 000 copies compared to today.. massive... like I've said before different times.
I enjoy these "ifs buts and maybes " topics, they generate discussion , are fun and interesting to hear others ideas...
In retrospect during those years from 75 to ? You pick, ABBA could've released anything from the
Album of the time and it would've been a hit, even The Visitors missed out why no 3rd single to try and amend HOH.. down to choices again and how much influence did B & B have ?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2018 8:56:23 GMT
Good stuff. Two additional things pop into my mind. Firstly, V-V marked the only time ABBA released an album that wasn't better than the previous one. (Or at least after they'd gone mega - I actually substantially prefer RR to Waterloo, though I avoided it for decades!) Secondly, we (rightly) judge ABBA by their own benchmark and it's a different one from that applied to almost every other singer/group. Yes, they could have had a Top Ten hit with anything, anything at all between 1976 and 1981. I think Eagle would probably have made it to number 3 in the UK, if it had been released after TACOM. But releasing it would then probably have felt like a mistake, because ABBA only really dealt in chart-toppers. (Nothing else on 'The Album' would have fared any better.) So I totally understand why they 'bottled' it and didn't put it out. With the V-V releases, it actually seems as if they were happy, by 1979, just to have 'big' hits (i.e. Top Five hits) and went for quantity over quality. If so, their confidence had really been dented by the (relative) travails of SNC. That's at least partly explanation for the complete change of strategy regarding singles released from 'The Album' and singles released from V-V.
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Post by gary on Oct 25, 2018 13:40:33 GMT
We may all have slightly differing opinions, but the one thing we all seem to agree upon is that the run of singles from SOS to Take A Chance On Me is perfect. (I personally also like Summer Night City and Chiquitita a lot, but I acknowledge that perhaps they represent a slight drop in quality.) The SOS to TACOM run is simply the best run of singles by anybody!
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Post by madonnabba on Oct 25, 2018 15:58:23 GMT
I also agree with that run of singles. They could do no wrong at that time. I think there may have been room for Eagle as a single but read somewhere that Hole in your soul was being considered as lead single from The Album. As for SNC, I think the UK’s attention was temporarily switched to Grease and Boney M with Blondie on the horizon. There was a real switch to disco around this time even Blondie ,considered as a new wave act at the time released Heart of Glass to great success and dismay of some of their followers. Think it was inevitable Abba and ELO got caught up in it. Although I am not a great fan of Chiquitita or IHAD they were both great successes. I think DYMK would probably have reached higher with the girls on lead vocals probably Frida as lead. A video for Angel Eyes May have helped that single go higher rather than the VV video but I still find VV infectious . The only songs that I did not like from that time were Lovers and TKHLHC.
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Post by foreverfan on Oct 25, 2018 16:25:54 GMT
Also if we consider that TACOM was the end of the "Golden Period" here in the UK , was the gap between it leaving the charts on 8th April and SNC entering the charts on 16th September far to long? 5 months... did the buying public move onto the likes of Blondie, Boney M etc...ending that period of dominance, or just poor choices...
ABBA did seem to have long gaps between singles with 1976 and 79 being exceptions...
But with all that said, every artist has its day whether it's short or long , one single or many, had ABBA just started to run its course by 1980......
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2018 17:53:47 GMT
ABBA Fans have all kinds of ideas as to what should and should not have been ABBA Singles. Really, they were
not as consistent at releasing them, as The Beatles. ABBA were the biggest Global Group for Years, yet it was
almost as if they were scared to release Singles, at times. I'm talking about the 2 1977 Singles, the 2 1978,
Singles, (I realize that 'Eagle' made it 3 in some Countries). The 2 1980 Singles. The 2 1981 Singles - and
some Countries only got 1, as they did not get 'Lay All Your Love On Me'. For a huge Act, ABBA released
no-where near as many World Singles as they could have. Forget the idea that to release 3 a Year, would
have turned people against them. It never happened when The Beatles did it. Madonna released 8 Singles
in 1985! It never made people stop buying her Records. The truth is that ABBA could have released at least
4 or 5 more Singles, than they did. Instead we got weird, long 'Gaps' in 1977 and 1980 etc. Their efforts
in the USA - to be huge - were stupid. 1978 saw them declaring that they were the Best Selling Group -
ever. In a Country where The Beatles had, had 20 No.1 Singles, and they'd had 1! That made them an
object of ridicule. Then ABBA went to the USA, and did a Promo Campaign - to try to be huge there.
This caused 'Take A Chance on Me' to reach No.3, and 'The Album' to reach No.14, and sell a USA
Million. Then they went back to Sweden and both they and Atlantic just 'forgot' to carry on the 1978
Campaign. After 'Take A Chance On Me', they never even bothered to release 'Summer Night City'
there. The USA Fans just got nothing, between 'Take A Chance On Me', and 'Chiquitita' - and even
that was released far later than anywhere else. So, ABBA made many mistakes regarding Singles.
I have Zero training in PR, but I'd have done a lot better than ABBA did, in 1978 etc! (As would many
other ABBA Fans, here and elsewhere).
'New Musical Express' was not keen on ABBA, when they were together. It was, however, crazy about Blondie.
In an Article, a few Years ago, 'NME' claimed that Blondie became the World's Biggest Group in 1979, and
that this knocked ABBA down to 2nd place. It never happened. ABBA were always bigger than Blondie, even
in 1979 and 'Heart Of Glass'. Blondie claim 20 Million World Sales for the 'Parallel Lines' Album. It really sold
no more than 8,700,000. That is only a few 100,000 more than ABBA's 'Super Trouper' Album. Believe it or
not, Blondie claim that they based their 1979 UK No.2 Hit - 'Dreaming' - on 'Dancing Queen'! I've yet to hear
any resemblance between the 21 Singles! (A few Years ago, Debbie Harry said that she was not a Fan of ABBA,
because ABBA were, 'Only in it for the money'.
Correction - As Gary says, ABBA did release 'Does Your Mother Know' and 'Voulez-Vous' in the USA, before 'Chiquitita'.
However, the fact remains, that ABBA did not follow-up 'Take A Chance On Me', for a very long time in the USA - not until
'Does Your Mother Know' was released, several Months into 1979. It was very odd that their 1978 'Campaign', to be huge,
in the USA, ended so poorly and weakly...
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Post by matt on Oct 25, 2018 19:42:54 GMT
Undoubtedly the singles run from SOS to Take A Chance On Me was perfect. I think ABBA reached a creative peak with The Name Of The Game and Eagle and The Album overall was an artistic triumph. It was only 3 years before that they were recording songs like Tropical Loveland and Man In The Middle. The first few months of 1977 saw a triumphant tour of Europe and Australia, Dancing Queen reaching No.1 in US, and KMKY and Arrival spending weeks at No.1 in Britain. After this, a relative drop in popularity was inevitable.
It seems as though Bjorn and Benny judged a singles success by how it performed in the UK. SOS is always quoted as being the song that brought them back from the wilderness after the post- Eurovision flops. I Do, I Do... was a pretty big worldwide hit reaching No.1 in Australia and even Top 15 in the United States however only reached No. 38 in the UK so it has the reputation of being a flop. On the other hand, The Name Of The Game was actually a relative flop even though it reached No.1 in Britain. After 6 consecutive No.1's in both Australia and Germany, TNOTG didn't even hit the top 5.
After the backlash that occurred in Australia after the 1977 tour I think Stig in particular was always worried about the group being over exposed which would explain the lack of single releases. I'm sure When I Kissed The Teacher could have been a top 3 hit in Britain if released in the summer of 1977 and also Eagle/Thank You For The Music in 1978.
I agree that ABBA missed a huge opportunity in the US during 1978/79. After putting so much money into the May 1978 campaign and achieving decent results TACOM and The Album, they then disappeared for a whole year. Apparently Atlantic thought Summer Night City would be a massive hit but they also wanted there to be an album to accompany it. At that stage, the Voulez-Vous album wasn't even half ready so nothing happened. Similarly, Chiquitita was performed in New York at the Unicef Gala and therefore another opportunity to capitalise on but Atlantic didn't release until 9 months later and it only scraped into the Top 30.
Lastly, I think ABBA should have taken more risks with releasing When All Is Said And Done and The Visitors instead of Head Over Heels.
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Post by madonnabba on Oct 25, 2018 20:23:14 GMT
Yeah the gap in 1977 could have been filled with another single from Arrival. When I kissed the teacher would have been good. 1980 could have done with another one. I favoured Andante Andante. And Happy new year/lay all your love on me to get the Festive period with Laytom to carry it through to new year with a proper video for Layom. And then in 1982 singles should’ve been The Visitors and When all is said and done. At the time of the break up they should have announced they were splitting up. Probably would have given them another number one. It must have been evident that it was unlikely they would stay together at that time. Some more missed opportunities. Think Atlantic in USA could have done more. But the USA were having a love affair with Bee Gees at that time.
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, I do think ABBA in general is in over kill and there's to much around at the moment, bring on the new stuff ..
Actually, many people are fans of the 60s, 70s or 80s and they probably have their reasons… 
