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Post by hejiranyc on Sept 20, 2016 5:07:14 GMT
Hi, y'all. I'm late to the party. Twenty years after buying "ABBA Gold," I have just gotten around to exploring ABBA's albums. Honestly, I think I was spooked away after hearing the cheesy bubblegum of "Honey Honey" and "Bang a Boomerang," but after randomly finding "The Day Before You Became" on YouTube, I was intrigued anew. Needless to say, I have been in serious ABBA mode for the past month or so, listening to all of their albums back-to-back, and I really have to kick myself for not exploring ABBA sooner; it's some seriously good stuff!
Anyway, full disclaimer: Fleetwood Mac (Rumours lineup) is my first love, and they will always be. But as I have peeled back the layers on ABBA, I can't help but notice the strong parallels between these two very different bands. A superficial, cursory glance reveals that:
-Both bands came to superstardom around the same time.
-Both bands released their most seminal works between 1975 and 1979.
-The members of both bands are similar in age.
-Both bands are technically bi-national (since Frida is originally from Norway).
-Both bands featured two strong female lead vocalists at a time when it was unusual for bands to have a female lead singer.
-In both bands, one of the female vocalists had a thin, reedy timbre, while the other had a more dusky, velvety, husky tone.
-In both bands, one of the female vocalists was the "sex symbol" while the other had an earthier, idiosyncratic beauty.
-Both bands were comprised of two couples who broke up...
-...and the lingering tensions made it difficult/miserable to continue working together.
-Both bands stopped recording in the 1980s after recording one very 80s-sounding album (although Fleetwood Mac continued onward with different personnel).
-Members of both bands went on to enjoy successful solo careers.
But upon closer examination, ABBA and Fleetwood Mac share exceptional musicianship:
-Benny & Bjorn were incredibly gifted songwriters/producers/arrangers, just as Lindsey Buckingham was for Fleetwood Mac.
-Benny & Bjorn were studio junkies, just like Lindsey Buckingham.
-The vocal harmony arrangements on ABBA and Fleetwood Mac albums were the most extraordinary in pop music, which can be attributed to B&B and Lindsey's love of the Beach Boys.
-The singles from each of these bands had the most infectious, catchy pop hooks, yet their albums still included stunningly left-field works, e.g., "I'm a Marionette" vs. "Tusk."
-Although both bands embraced commercial success, they were also intensely dedicated to perfecting their craft and striving for greater artistic heights.
This being said, I do find it interesting that the Fleetwood Mac phenomenon has been largely fueled by the dramatic backstory of the splitting couples within the band, yet in the case of ABBA, it's barely a footnote. Perhaps it's because ABBA has pretty much refused to talk about their private drama. By contrast, forty years after the fact, you can't get Stevie Nicks to shut up about it!
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Post by crackinup on Sept 20, 2016 10:26:11 GMT
I too have wondered this. On the contrary, for me ABBA was my first love and Fleetwood Mac came in later. There are many parallels, but the writing, recording and toring process is a bit different. Writing: On the rumours line-up there are 3 main writers with a different style of writing: Stevie wrote poems, that later became songs, Christine wrote only when shee needed the come up with some songs for an album and Lindsey, well, I don't know so much about his style. Also, both ABBA and FM all got a bit of a writers block in some point in the game, but unlike FM who put their "songs from the block" on albums, ABBA scrapped most of them. Christine wasn't too strong on Tusk, Lindsey on Mirage and Stevie on Tango. Recording: ABBA worked on a song without any breaks for other songs. Meaning, if they started to work on, say, The Day Before You Came, they would record everything and work on it until it was finished. Fleetwood Mac on the other hand worked a bit on one song, a bit on the other and so on. Like The Chain was at first recorded as Keep Me There at the start of the Rumours sessions and was finished at the very end of these sessions. Sure, there were exceptions here. Touring: ABBA certanly weren't too keen on the strain of touring, because all members except for Bjorn had little children waiting at home. On the Fleetwood Mac side only Mick had children in the touring days, John's daughter was born later in 1989 and Lindsey's kids in the early 2000s. Also, FM had a tour after each album, but ABBA had a few tours in the Nordic countries between 1972 and 1975, a big tour in 1977 and one in 1979+1980, if you count the Japan tour alonside the 1979 tour. Also, there is the thing that Fleetwood Mac is still an musically active band, unlike ABBA. To sum it up, I agree with your points.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 11:44:43 GMT
No. Only superficial differences eg two couples that split up. The "Classic" Fleetwood Mac lining of Mick Fleetwood, John McVie, Christine McVie, Lyndsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks lasted beyond the early 1980s to Tango in the Night in 1987, well after ABBA split...
However, ABBA could have re-invented themselves as a Fleetwood Mac type group after the release of Knowing Me, Knowing You, The Name of the Game and The Album. This short period, was perhaps closer to Fleetwood Mac than the bubblegum pop they practiced before.
If you compare Arrival and Rumours - the former is stuffed with childish, throwaway pop songs, the latter a collection of timeless collections. Arrival was bought by kids and had a limited shelf-life, Rumours bought by adults and sells to this day.
Knowing Me, Knowing You is a song that Fleetwood Mac could have sung. (Dancing Queen is a pop classic of course, I'm thinking more When I Kissed the Teacher, Dum Dum Diddle, Why Did it Have to Be Me, Tiger, That's Me - when I say "childish, throw-away pop)
ABBA had a more of a musical range than Fleetwood Mac. On The Album, Eagle, One, Man, One Woman, The Name of the Game, Move On, could have been Fleetwood Mac songs.
Fleetwood Mac never tried to embark upon disco, pure pop, or musical genres - which ABBA did
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Post by chron on Sept 20, 2016 22:54:23 GMT
Another shared trait: both band names are derived from combining elements of band members' names! Not easy to compare and contrast the two bands, though, when one had a fixed line-up throughout its history, and the other went through several distinct incarnations and shed line-ups like skins. I'm going to take issue with the statement that FM released their most seminal works in the mid to late seventies; a number of tracks by Peter Green's FM are stone classics that will be played and revered as long as popular music is (Albatross, Oh Well, Black Magic Woman, Man Of The World, Green Manalishi). I love the Buckingham/Nicks era, but the 'classic' band for me will always be: Green, Spencer, Kirwan, McVie and Fleetwood. Green had one of the most soulful blues voices ever, and he and Danny Kirwan were a couple of guitar mavens. Unlike Johnny I also think that FM had plenty of musical range, and across line-ups: sweetly wistful instrumentals like Albatross, World In Harmony, Earl Grey and Sunny Side Of Heaven look forward to ambient easy-listening soundtrack fills; Underway (especially the long version) is a gorgeously dreamy long-form instrumental jam that predates the more beatific, drony strains of prog by two or three years at least; Dragonfly is a lovely bit of hippie-era pastoral balminess, and the Tusk title track, with its blend of martial rhythms, shout-out chorus and snatches of barely coherent spoken muttering is still one of the oddest tracks to become a hit in the singles chart.
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Post by hejiranyc on Sept 20, 2016 23:57:41 GMT
I too have wondered this. On the contrary, for me ABBA was my first love and Fleetwood Mac came in later. There are many parallels, but the writing, recording and toring process is a bit different. Writing: On the rumours line-up there are 3 main writers with a different style of writing: Stevie wrote poems, that later became songs, Christine wrote only when shee needed the come up with some songs for an album and Lindsey, well, I don't know so much about his style. Also, both ABBA and FM all got a bit of a writers block in some point in the game, but unlike FM who put their "songs from the block" on albums, ABBA scrapped most of them. Christine wasn't too strong on Tusk, Lindsey on Mirage and Stevie on Tango. Recording: ABBA worked on a song without any breaks for other songs. Meaning, if they started to work on, say, The Day Before You Came, they would record everything and work on it until it was finished. Fleetwood Mac on the other hand worked a bit on one song, a bit on the other and so on. Like The Chain was at first recorded as Keep Me There at the start of the Rumours sessions and was finished at the very end of these sessions. Sure, there were exceptions here. Touring: ABBA certanly weren't too keen on the strain of touring, because all members except for Bjorn had little children waiting at home. On the Fleetwood Mac side only Mick had children in the touring days, John's daughter was born later in 1989 and Lindsey's kids in the early 2000s. Also, FM had a tour after each album, but ABBA had a few tours in the Nordic countries between 1972 and 1975, a big tour in 1977 and one in 1979+1980, if you count the Japan tour alonside the 1979 tour. Also, there is the thing that Fleetwood Mac is still an musically active band, unlike ABBA. To sum it up, I agree with your points. Indeed, the songwriting approaches taken by B&B vs. FM is quite dramatic. I can appreciate B&B's meticulous approach, but somehow I think the world has been robbed of tons of "vault material" due to their tendency to abort songs in mid-gestation if they were not working out for some reason. By contrast, Stevie Nicks is notorious for her vault of demos, unreleased studio takes and completed tracks that never got released for various reasons (and honestly, they remained unreleased for good reason!). I was surprised to see how little ABBA toured, even during their peak stardom. By contrast, FM embarked on multi-year tours after each album release. And when they released solo albums, they embarked on solo tours. And when there were no new albums, they still toured just for the heck of it... even today. The mind boggles at all of the decades of live music we could have enjoyed if ABBA shared FM's love of touring. But then again, much of the allure of touring for FM involved the ingestion of copious amounts of various substances and "marching powders" while ABBA went through the touring grind sober as a judge. I really could not imagine the thought of "meeting 20,000 of your friends" every night without at least getting a good buzz on! |
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Post by hejiranyc on Sept 21, 2016 3:23:13 GMT
No. Only superficial differences eg two couples that split up. The "Classic" Fleetwood Mac lining of Mick Fleetwood, John McVie, Christine McVie, Lyndsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks lasted beyond the early 1980s to Tango in the Night in 1987, well after ABBA split... However, ABBA could have re-invented themselves as a Fleetwood Mac type group after the release of Knowing Me, Knowing You, The Name of the Game and The Album. This short period, was perhaps closer to Fleetwood Mac than the bubblegum pop they practiced before. If you compare Arrival and Rumours - the former is stuffed with childish, throwaway pop songs, the latter a collection of timeless collections. Arrival was bought by kids and had a limited shelf-life, Rumours bought by adults and sells to this day. Knowing Me, Knowing You is a song that Fleetwood Mac could have sung. (Dancing Queen is a pop classic of course, I'm thinking more When I Kissed the Teacher, Dum Dum Diddle, Why Did it Have to Be Me, Tiger, That's Me - when I say "childish, throw-away pop) ABBA had a more of a musical range than Fleetwood Mac. On The Album, Eagle, One, Man, One Woman, The Name of the Game, Move On, could have been Fleetwood Mac songs. Fleetwood Mac never tried to embark upon disco, pure pop, or musical genres - which ABBA did I did specify that Fleetwood Mac (Rumours lineup) and ABBA both split up in the 1980s... but, yes, ABBA preceded FM; however, as I understand it, they never really officially broke up, so the real "end of ABBA" is really up for debate. One could make the case that "ABBA Live" was the final ABBA album, which was released only one year before the last Rumours-era album "Tango in the Night." You raise an interesting point about ABBA's musical development vs. FM. I never saw it as "ABBA is for kids and FM is for adults," but in hindsight, the contrast in subject matter on their seminal breakthrough albums is striking, despite their similarity in age. While FM was writing about sex, love, breakups, and drugs, ABBA was writing about dancing, dating and going to school. However, I do think "The Name of the Game" as an FM song is a bit of a stretch; it was a bit musically/vocally rangy for FM, which, by comparison had much simpler compositions. But, yes, "Knowing Me, Knowing You" is definitely in the FM lane, even featuring a somewhat Christine McVie-ish vocal from Frida. You also raise a valid point about musical range. FM pretty much stayed strictly in the pop/rock genre with not a single jazz chord in their entire catalog. I think it's either a symptom of extreme musical discipline or a symptom of extreme musical myopia. But, yes, ABBA fearlessly mined the depths of every musical genre from country rock ("Santa Rosa") to soul ("My Mama Said") to glam rock ("Hey, Hey Helen") to torch song ("I Let the Music Speak") to disco (pretty much all of "Voulez Vous") to a blatant Beach Boys rip-off ("Blue Hawaii") and every possible variation of 70s/80s pop, including shameless schmaltz. ABBA's output and evolution within a short 8-year period is quite stunning; it is only comparable to the Beatles in my opinion. Meanwhile, after being together (on and off) for over 40 years, the Fleetwood Mac "Rumours" lineup has only released five albums. |
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Post by hejiranyc on Sept 21, 2016 3:42:26 GMT
Another shared trait: both band names are derived from combining elements of band members' names! Not easy to compare and contrast the two bands, though, when one had a fixed line-up throughout its history, and the other went through several distinct incarnations and shed line-ups like skins. I'm going to take issue with the statement that FM released their most seminal works in the mid to late seventies; a number of tracks by Peter Green's FM are stone classics that will be played and revered as long as popular music is (Albatross, Oh Well, Black Magic Woman, Man Of The World, Green Manalishi). I love the Buckingham/Nicks era, but the 'classic' band for me will always be: Green, Spencer, Kirwan, McVie and Fleetwood. Green had one of the most soulful blues voices ever, and he and Danny Kirwan were a couple of guitar mavens. Unlike Johnny I also think that FM had plenty of musical range, and across line-ups: sweetly wistful instrumentals like Albatross, World In Harmony, Earl Grey and Sunny Side Of Heaven look forward to ambient easy-listening soundtrack fills; Underway (especially the long version) is a gorgeously dreamy long-form instrumental jam that predates the more beatific, drony strains of prog by two or three years at least; Dragonfly is a lovely bit of hippie-era pastoral balminess, and the Tusk title track, with its blend of martial rhythms, shout-out chorus and snatches of barely coherent spoken muttering is still one of the oddest tracks to become a hit in the singles chart. Good point about the name! I hadn't considered that. I also like/love the various incarnations of FM to varying degrees, but for me, all of the planets were in alignment for the Rumours lineup. Indeed, Peter Green was an extraordinary talent, and "Then Play On" is pretty decent album. But I do have an implicit bias when it comes to white people, especially English musicians, playing music that directly borrows/appropriates the music borne of the oppression of black people in the American South (Blues). It just doesn't ring true to me, as if they are merely imitating Robert Johnson. As white, heterosexual men in a white, heteronormative society, what gives them the right to be singing the blues? I mean, I like "bluesy" musical riffs incorporated into the structure of a song (like much of Led Zeppelin's catalog), but I think Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac took that all the way to wholesale appropriation; it just sounds phony-baloney to me. Sorry! Much better were the underrated, overlooked string of "middle" period albums featuring Bob Welch (and Danny Kirwan, at times). |
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Post by chron on Sept 21, 2016 14:43:48 GMT
I'd broadly chime with your view on white guys singing the blues (and extend it to include white disco, whenever its practitioners are trying too hard to get 'funk-ahy'), but Peter Green gets a pass because of his restrained and tasteful guitar playing, the warm melancholy of his voice, and because his background - humble East End of London Jewish - gave him the sort of authentic leeway to be able to adopt a blues persona and use it as an outlet for his personal experience of hardship and discrimination (he certainly had more of a 'right' to sing the blues than the likes of Paul Jones or Mick "Born in a crossfire hurricane" Jagger, with the latter's comfortable middle-class upbringing and LSE education). The last thing Green comes across as on Oh Well or Rattlesnake shake is phony (there's a reason why B.B. King, a Mississippian who could walk it and talk it, said that Green was "the only one who makes me sweat"!). Also, the Green band did a lot of great stuff that moved beyond a straight-forward blues approach.
You're definitely right to wave a flag for the FM that existed in the years just after the demise of the original line-up. I couldn't rank the work they did above that done by the original group (bar the wonderful Future Games, their albums are fairly patchy) but the best of it is equal to it. Danny Kirwan is the key - the group always holds especial interest for me whenever he's a part of the equation. His is probably the saddest story of the whole FM saga, given that both Peter Green and Jeremy Spencer have managed to make their way back to playing and releasing music in recent years (Bob Welch's end was very sad, but he'd had quite a productive career in the years before it, and I think still socialised with FM). Poor Danny remains a lost soul; such a great guitar player, and a sweet, affecting vocalist. His solo albums are quite lightweight compared to the work he did with FM, but Second Chapter is good and consistent, and there are gems tucked away on the other two.
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Post by wombat on Sept 22, 2016 13:11:28 GMT
" But I do have an implicit bias when it comes to white people, especially English musicians, playing music that directly borrows/appropriates the music borne of the oppression of black people in the American South (Blues)"
then you must hate most of rock music in the 70s, and, all the riffs Abba AND Fleetwood Mac lifted over the course of their successful careers. Listen to Ring Ring or the end of Waterloo. Actually its everywhere. The end riff of The Chain. Half of all rock and roll can be traced back to Chuck Berry, who took most of his from 12 bar blues.
And what about Abba doing disco, which wasnt exactly about oppression, but still borne of a primarily black form of music, funk?
"As white, heterosexual men in a white, heteronormative society, what gives them the right to be singing the blues? "
oh boy. You got to be kidding. Because only black people can feel true sorrow, right?
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Post by josef on Sept 22, 2016 14:48:29 GMT
Well, I've always liked a lot of Fleetwood Mac's music but I'm not what you'd call a hardcore fan. I don't have all of their albums, just three, I think. To me, I associate Stevie, Christine, Mick, John and Lindsey the most with them, that line-up is the one I know. Rumours, Tango In The Night, those are my favourite albums and I don't think there's a track I dislike. Tusk, too.
As for parallels, well, there are some indeed. I'm sure I have heard ABBA referred to as Fleetwood Mac on acid or disco or something along those lines which is ironic given how 'clean' ABBA were. I think they liked a drink or two and there's that quote about smelling something 'funny' backstage and Agnetha and Frida taking a deep breath before going on stage- a funny quote, how true it is I have no clue. But they could never compete with the legendary drug taking shenanigans of FM.
Anyway, both great pop groups whichever way you look at it. Regarding genres/blues, I'm no expert but I've never thought one style was the exclusive domain of anybody in particular? Aren't all singers/musicians influenced by somebody or something? That comes through in their work. Adele is clearly white but her music is I suppose what you'd call 'soulful'? Don't artists just go with what they feel and are attracted to? I don't know but I like this thread, it's interesting.
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Post by wombat on Sept 23, 2016 16:32:37 GMT
I saw the most famous Fleetwood Mac lineup in concert, late 70s or so, big stadium concert in Florida. They were very good and the big crowd adored them.
I like all their albums up to Rumours - I didnt like Tusk so much or anything after that. I really prefer the older lineups, but thats just me. From what I've read, at least Benny and Frida really liked the Rumours album.
One thing both bands discussed here do NOT have in common - Fleetwood Mac was self-contained. They normally created all their music with only the people in the band and conceived and arranged every single note themselves. Not so with Abba, who always employed at least a great drummer, bass player and lead guitar player, who were indispensable to their sound. Who knows what these guys came up with musically in the sessions, I read somewhere that they did contribute ideas, and were not credited as such on the albums... but were well compensated financially.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2016 9:29:21 GMT
Sept 20, 2016 23:23:13 GMT 1 hejiranyc said "I did specify that Fleetwood Mac (Rumours lineup) and ABBA both split up in the 1980s... but, yes, ABBA preceded FM; however, as I understand it, they never really officially broke up, so the real "end of ABBA" is really up for debate. One could make the case that "ABBA Live" was the final ABBA album, which was released only one year before the last Rumours-era album "Tango in the Night." " Actually FM did not "split" in the early 1980s, well, not permanently, just took a long time to come up with another studio album. ABBA's last studio album was in 1981, last recordings in 1982 - that's when they split. "ABBA Live" is not a studio album - but a live compilation. "Tango in the Night" was FM's last studio album with the Rumours line-up. You simply can't make the case to ABBA Live being the last ABBA album... On other issues you raise, regarding race and music, I pretty much agree with Wombat. Why shouldn't White people play blues or disco - or indeeed Black people do say Heavy Metal or Classical? Black is a colour not a culture. Let's not either have self-imposed musical apartheid. As for disco, ABBA's attempts were not that great - compared to other artists doing that genre, or indeed ABBA's other material. The best disco acts in the late 70s, were mainly Black - Chic, Sister Sledge, Earth, Wind + Fire, Gloria Gaynor etc...However, arguably the biggest disco act of that era was the Bee Gees - white as far as I could see. Blondie's "Heart of Glass" was apretty big 'disco' hit though... |
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Post by wombat on Sept 26, 2016 13:17:35 GMT
Here's another perspective on the statement that white boys shouldnt be allowed to play blues, or whatever.
I've lived in the USA all my life, and I've played in several working blues bands, in the southern usa, where blues are still somewhat popular. Every single one of these blues bands, was racially mixed... black guys and girls and white guys and girls, working together, to make music. There was no discrimination whatsoever, just people digging the music, and, every other blues band on the circuit, was the same way.
One of my closest friends was a bass player who is black. This is what he told me about all this, I'm paraphrasing, but this is the gist of it -
"White boys didnt steal the blues. They saved the blues from going extinct. If it wasnt for people like Elvis and the Rolling Stones, blues would have been forgotten. White musicians saved it from obscurity. And Chess Records would have gone out of business if it wasnt for all those American white boys buying up all those Muddy Waters records."
Another black guy once told me, "Black people dont listen to blues anymore. My young nephew is into rap and he says blues are "Sharecroppers music". You dont see young black musicians playing blues, not usually. They like rap and hip hop and r&b. Only the older black generation still likes blues. The only young musicians playing blues, carrying it forward, are white."
None of these are absolute truths, there will always be exceptions. And there were some white rock artists that were notorious for ripping off the old blues masters. Even so, there was already precedent for that... the blues tradition was built on openly borrowing from others and no credit given. Sure, this all changed when money came into it, and I'm not excusing these bands that made a mint off old blues tunes and didnt properly credit the authors... if you could even figure out who the author was.
In my opinion, the reality is completely the opposite of all that. The guys that stole that music are the exception. The fact that you ever heard blues at all, is probably because white musicians found musical solace and inspiration in the blues.
Its curious to read someone saying "so and so shouldnt be allowed to play certain music" on an Abba forum. That's like saying gay men shouldnt be allowed to play Abba songs because nobody in Abba was gay. That's silly too.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 12:19:04 GMT
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Post by hejiranyc on Sept 29, 2016 4:30:19 GMT
" But I do have an implicit bias when it comes to white people, especially English musicians, playing music that directly borrows/appropriates the music borne of the oppression of black people in the American South (Blues)" then you must hate most of rock music in the 70s, and, all the riffs Abba AND Fleetwood Mac lifted over the course of their successful careers. Listen to Ring Ring or the end of Waterloo. Actually its everywhere. The end riff of The Chain. Half of all rock and roll can be traced back to Chuck Berry, who took most of his from 12 bar blues. And what about Abba doing disco, which wasnt exactly about oppression, but still borne of a primarily black form of music, funk? "As white, heterosexual men in a white, heteronormative society, what gives them the right to be singing the blues? " oh boy. You got to be kidding. Because only black people can feel true sorrow, right? Good lawd, just a wee bit dramatic? LOL I did state "I mean, I like "bluesy" musical riffs incorporated into the structure of a song (like much of Led Zeppelin's catalog), but I think Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac took that all the way to wholesale appropriation ." To put it another way, it's one thing to wear a kimono-style top (like all of ABBA did at one point), but it's another thing to tape up the corners of your eyes, stick chopsticks in your hair and run around bowing to people whilst speaking "Engrish." There is "borrowing" and being influenced by a different "ethnicity" and then there is wholesale theft/mockery/exploitation of an ethnic group's culture. It is a fine line between tasteful/respectful and being offensive. It is one thing to wear a hip hop T-shirt, but it's another thing to do blackface. It's the difference between Eminem, who really pretty much paved his own separate lane adjacent to black hip hop music, versus Vanilla Ice, who tried (and failed epically) to appropriate black hip hop culture, complete with speech affectations. All that being said, I am not completely discounting Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac from a musical standpoint. My criticism is mainly that they came across as inauthentic to me; the music just didn't seem to come from a genuine place. In a nutshell, black people in America were/are systemically oppressed; white men, especially heterosexual white men are not. Every white, heterosexual male in America (and the UK) should be thanking their lucky stars that they don't have to deal with the daily impediments of being female, GLBT or a minority in white male-dominated society. Just telling like it is. Disco, unlike blues, was not borne of the pain and hopelessness of black people. If anything, it was borne of celebration... like a decadent, hedonistic outgrowth of Philly soul. It was more about having a good time than trying to convey a message. Yes, it is sometimes goofy to hear some white people do disco (ever heard the Ethel Merman disco album??), but it's all good fun. |
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Post by hejiranyc on Sept 29, 2016 4:47:59 GMT
Sept 20, 2016 23:23:13 GMT 1 hejiranyc said "I did specify that Fleetwood Mac (Rumours lineup) and ABBA both split up in the 1980s... but, yes, ABBA preceded FM; however, as I understand it, they never really officially broke up, so the real "end of ABBA" is really up for debate. One could make the case that "ABBA Live" was the final ABBA album, which was released only one year before the last Rumours-era album "Tango in the Night." " Actually FM did not "split" in the early 1980s, well, not permanently, just took a long time to come up with another studio album. ABBA's last studio album was in 1981, last recordings in 1982 - that's when they split. "ABBA Live" is not a studio album - but a live compilation. "Tango in the Night" was FM's last studio album with the Rumours line-up. You simply can't make the case to ABBA Live being the last ABBA album... On other issues you raise, regarding race and music, I pretty much agree with Wombat. Why shouldn't White people play blues or disco - or indeeed Black people do say Heavy Metal or Classical? Black is a colour not a culture. Let's not either have self-imposed musical apartheid. As for disco, ABBA's attempts were not that great - compared to other artists doing that genre, or indeed ABBA's other material. The best disco acts in the late 70s, were mainly Black - Chic, Sister Sledge, Earth, Wind + Fire, Gloria Gaynor etc...However, arguably the biggest disco act of that era was the Bee Gees - white as far as I could see. Blondie's "Heart of Glass" was apretty big 'disco' hit though... My understanding is that ABBA made a conscious decision to take a hiatus at the end of 1982 and they just ended up never feeling the need to come back from hiatus (and it didn't help that members were selling off their shares of Polar Music). There was never a defining catastrophic event that drove them to issue a press release announcing their dissolution. If anything, they made pointed efforts to dispel any rumors of a pending break-up all the way to the (fuzzy) end. In fact, I recall seeing an Agnetha interview from 1983 in which she stated that they were just taking a break and doing side projects for a while. The 1986 live album seemed to be a half-hearted effort to help keep ABBA relevant after so many years of inactivity, as if they were buying time while they were recalibrating and trying to figure out how to make a comeback. By contrast, Fleetwood Mac (Rumours line-up) ended when Lindsey Buckingham *officially* announced his departure in 1987. One day they were together. The next day, they were no more. I never said that X people are not allowed to play the music of Y people. It's just my personal OPINION that white guys singing the blues generally sound phony and affected. And there is a difference between "borrowing" or being "influenced by" vs. wholesale appropriation. I won't go into all that again... |
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Post by hejiranyc on Sept 29, 2016 5:00:16 GMT
Here's another perspective on the statement that white boys shouldnt be allowed to play blues, or whatever. I've lived in the USA all my life, and I've played in several working blues bands, in the southern usa, where blues are still somewhat popular. Every single one of these blues bands, was racially mixed... black guys and girls and white guys and girls, working together, to make music. There was no discrimination whatsoever, just people digging the music, and, every other blues band on the circuit, was the same way. One of my closest friends was a bass player who is black. This is what he told me about all this, I'm paraphrasing, but this is the gist of it - "White boys didnt steal the blues. They saved the blues from going extinct. If it wasnt for people like Elvis and the Rolling Stones, blues would have been forgotten. White musicians saved it from obscurity. And Chess Records would have gone out of business if it wasnt for all those American white boys buying up all those Muddy Waters records." Another black guy once told me, "Black people dont listen to blues anymore. My young nephew is into rap and he says blues are "Sharecroppers music". You dont see young black musicians playing blues, not usually. They like rap and hip hop and r&b. Only the older black generation still likes blues. The only young musicians playing blues, carrying it forward, are white." None of these are absolute truths, there will always be exceptions. And there were some white rock artists that were notorious for ripping off the old blues masters. Even so, there was already precedent for that... the blues tradition was built on openly borrowing from others and no credit given. Sure, this all changed when money came into it, and I'm not excusing these bands that made a mint off old blues tunes and didnt properly credit the authors... if you could even figure out who the author was. In my opinion, the reality is completely the opposite of all that. The guys that stole that music are the exception. The fact that you ever heard blues at all, is probably because white musicians found musical solace and inspiration in the blues. Its curious to read someone saying "so and so shouldnt be allowed to play certain music" on an Abba forum. That's like saying gay men shouldnt be allowed to play Abba songs because nobody in Abba was gay. That's silly too. OMG, it's like a game of telephone around here. I never said anyone wasn't "allowed" to make any music. People can do whatever they want. But I am still entitled to my opinions (along with everyone else... everyone else is entitled to MY opinions. LOL). I just choose to feel that, unless music comes from an honest, genuine place, it's not worth my time and attention. Indeed, you may have a point about white people carrying the torch for blues music. But I don't know whether it is better to leave it as a pure, unspoiled relic from history, or whether it's worth having to deal with all the crap contemporary blues music. It is so simple in structure and is so repetitive; blues sets the bar pretty low for mediocre musicians. |
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Post by hejiranyc on Sept 29, 2016 5:39:05 GMT
Yes, I've read about this. And it's causing quite a stir in the Fleetwood Mac world, especially all of the antipathy towards Stevie Nicks, who continues to refuse to participate in these Fleetwood Mac recording sessions because she can't stand the thought of being stuck with Lindsey Buckingham in the studio. Of course, she didn't say it in so many words, but she has certainly made veiled digs (thrown shade) at Lindsey while doing print media promotion for her upcoming solo tour. But what I love most about this article is Christine's continued love for her craft and her band, and the fact that, at the age of 73, she wants to keep going and going. ABBA should take after her example! That being said, perhaps it was a good thing for ABBA to split up when they did. Even though they all seemed amicable all the way to the end, who knows what raging storms they kept under tight wraps? Having to continue working with your ex(es) has to take a psychological toll after a while, especially when they re-marry, have more kids, etc. That being said, I can totally understand A and A wanting to take a break from working with B and B (and vice versa). But why didn't A and A ever work together on their own projects (like B and B)? Just based on their onstage chemistry, I got the vibe that they were super-close, like, practically sisters. Even during their final full(ish) live performance on the Dick Cavett Show in 1981, they were linked arm-in-arm, hip-to-hip for most of the show... like best buddies. Even without B&B's songs, I could imagine that they would have been quite a successful act. Even at their reunion in June, even though they sounded shaky at times, that unmistakable harmony/blend was still there. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2016 11:42:47 GMT
There was an over-lap between the Classic Fleetwood Mac line up and ABBA's career. ABBA released The Visitors in 1981 and FM Mirage in 1982. The former called it a day - the latter had one more album a few years down the line with Tango.
ABBA could have came back for a 'one-off' a few years later and perhaps, I Know Him So Well could have been an ABBA song. Had they just continued, their albums would have been unremarkable (like Fleetwood Mac's since Tango. Their album 'Time' failed to make the US top 200....what a flop!)
You can only be at the top of your game, creatively and commercially for a few years. The longer you go on the more irrelevant and disappointing your new material. Just look at The Rolling Stones or Paul McCartney!
At least those acts, like Fleetwood Mac were major Live bands - ABBA never were.
The one thing ABBA and FM really do have in common is the couple thing. It really would have been difficult for them to have continued. Interviews of ABBA during 1981-82 were very icy, and you see the tension between Frida and Benny.
A lot of fans ignore the inter-personal relationship factor - and the fact that "all musical careers end in failure" and seem deluded into thinking ABBA could have continued.
(By the way,the Live ABBA album was just their record company cashing in on another compilation - no great significance.)
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Post by wombat on Sept 29, 2016 17:12:52 GMT
"OMG, it's like a game of telephone around here. I never said anyone wasn't "allowed" to make any music. People can do whatever they want. But I am still entitled to my opinions (along with everyone else... everyone else is entitled to MY opinions. LOL). I just choose to feel that, unless music comes from an honest, genuine place, it's not worth my time and attention."
How can you suggest that a white person playing the blues cannot come from an honest, genuine place? That makes no sense and really, sounds quite racist.
but then below, heres something I do agree on you about, for the most part -
"That being said, perhaps it was a good thing for ABBA to split up when they did. Even though they all seemed amicable all the way to the end, who knows what raging storms they kept under tight wraps? Having to continue working with your ex(es) has to take a psychological toll after a while, especially when they re-marry, have more kids, etc. That being said, I can totally understand A and A wanting to take a break from working with B and B (and vice versa). But why didn't A and A ever work together on their own projects (like B and B)? Just based on their onstage chemistry, I got the vibe that they were super-close, like, practically sisters. Even during their final full(ish) live performance on the Dick Cavett Show in 1981, they were linked arm-in-arm, hip-to-hip for most of the show... like best buddies. Even without B&B's songs, I could imagine that they would have been quite a successful act. Even at their reunion in June, even though they sounded shaky at times, that unmistakable harmony/blend was still there."
Abba was really unique in a bunch of ways. I've been in bands that dissolved because of divorce, one band had a CD out and tour lined up, management, the whole nine yards. Chick singer announced she was divorcing the drummer, he bails, the whole thing folded like a house of cards right out from underneath me.
The fact that Abba survived divorces between every single member of the band, and still continued... is almost unthinkable to me. I'm sure they all had reasons that I couldnt comprehend and they certainly had achieved a level of success... and possibly a level of responsibility to a huge machine that depended on them... I could never comprehend that either.
The fact the Frida and Agnetha never worked together after Abba, to me, smacks of the possibility of a frosty relationship towards the end, and the hugging and smiles were just more of the fake it for the camera thing they seemed to be phoning in for the last year or so. Thats just my speculation and I might be 100% wrong.
And I thought the harmonies in the June thing were often really bad. Especially for their standards., Somebody was really out of scale here and there.
But hey, I couldnt do it, so, what do I know....
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Post by gary on Oct 6, 2016 20:30:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2016 21:59:42 GMT
^^^
They call ABBA 'trolls' for not reuniting…that's a new one.
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Post by wombat on Oct 26, 2016 15:39:50 GMT
"It’s exciting when a band gets back together, though. Especially when elsewhere in pop you’ve got Abba, whose refusal to get on with it is bordering on trolling.
Why wouldn’t they get back together? I suppose they made all the money in the world – I mean, we’re not doing it for the money either – but I don’t know. Maybe the need for each other is not there. You see, I still think there’s a certain need for each other in our band. In a strange way. We’re umbilically tied together, somehow. Without one of us, we’re incomplete."
I think she answered the question herself... there is no need for each other in Abba. Benny has no need for Abbas music as he has gone light years beyond that. The others I dont know about.
Who knows maybe one day... but I dont think it will ever happen.
The difference between Abba and Fleetwood Mac is that the individual members of the Fleetwood Mac group (or most of them) continued to play and record and perform on their own, as solos, the whole time.
In Abba, you have members that are more or less retired from music.
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