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Post by jj on Dec 28, 2022 17:17:54 GMT
Today’s “Stories About the Beatles” comes from David Bowie.
In an interview with MTV in 1995, Bowie recalled meeting John around 1974 and the reaction John had to Bowie’s chosen music genre at the time, glam rock. “We kind of started knocking around with each other and at the time he gave me what I thought was one of the better Lennon quotes, which I have said a number of times,” Bowie recalls. “I asked him what he thought of what I was doing, glam rock, and he said, ‘Yeah, it’s great, but it’s just rock and roll with lipstick on.’ I was impressed, as I was with virtually everything he said.”
“He was probably one of the the brightest, quickest witted, earnestly socialist men I’ve ever met in my life. Socialist in its true definition, not in fabricated political sense, a real humanist. And he had a really spiteful sense of humour which of course, being English, I adored.”
“I just thought we’d be buddies forever and get on better and better, and all that fantasy.” Bowie and John were obviously incredibly busy, so their friendship was more casual as John embraced fatherhood in the latter half of the ’70s.
“Everybody had their favorite Beatle… I did realize that. I always knew that, but one wouldn’t have declared it in the early 1970s because that would have been most uncool, to actually say you liked the Beatles in any way, shape or form. They made such a great impact – they gave the British the illusion we meant something again and we love hearing that, boy do we love hearing that.”
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Post by gary on Nov 3, 2023 9:15:14 GMT
^
This is going to sound snarky, for which I apologise, but the reaction of Beatles fans on Facebook to Now and Then reminded me of ABBA fans’ reaction to Voyage. Inferior material being lauded as the best ever. (I am of course a huge fan of ABBA and a big fan of the Beatles.)
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Post by johnny on Nov 3, 2023 10:16:47 GMT
I was going to do a thread on the new Beatles song but others have beaten me by posting about it!
I agree with both Lycka and Gary. My points
1. The song is terrible. It is dreary and John Lennon was not The Beatles' best vocalist! It's not even Beatles' song from when they were together. The song didn't even make it on to Lennon's Double Fantasy album.
2. The whole project is a bit ghoulish. A very poor demo of John dug up and worked on first by Paul, Ringo and George and then George dies and Paul and Ringo are at forefront of graverobbing. Hey, they missed Halloween by a few days
3. Beatles' fans reactions just so sychophantic in many cases. It is not a god song. It's not even average. I can see some comparison with some ABBA fans over the top praise of Voyage - a rather patchy album.
4. The whole "final song" project is pointless. The Beatles split in 1970. Their final singles Let it Be in the UK and The Long and Winding Road in the US were both poignand fitting last singles (not necessarily last songs recorded).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2023 10:44:21 GMT
I don't mind the track tbh and vastly prefer it to 'Free as a Bird' and 'Real Love', which I couldn't abide. I might even go as far as saying I quite like it. That's obviously damning it with faint praise, though. There again, despite obviously recognising their immense importance and influence, I'm not really a Beatles fan, for some reason. And to my mind, one of the hardest things for any 'classic' act is competing with their own back catalogue - especially when it's only with ersatz 'new material' as in this case. All of which makes 'Voyage' even more remarkable, I think. No, it's not ABBA greatest album. And no, it's not even ONE of their greatest albums (ranking seventh out of nine, for me). But at its best it does touch the same old stellar heights, overall it's a pretty good, varied and genuinely interesting listen and that's quite a rarity for a 'legacy' band.
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Post by Alan on Nov 3, 2023 14:41:08 GMT
I quite like how they’ve extracted Lennon’s voice from a cassette recording, but yes, it’s not really The Beatles in that it was a late 1970s John Lennon demo. Just like Free As A Bird and Real Love. The marketing is good - to brand a release as “the last Beatles song ever” when it comes 53 years after they split and 43 years after one of them died is quite something.
Apparently there was a fourth song on the cassettes that Yoko Ono handed them in the early 1990s (“Grow Old With Me”), but as they never attempted to record it back then (and George Harrison has since died) there’s no possibility of the “final, final Beatles song ever”.
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Post by HOMETIME on Nov 3, 2023 14:42:30 GMT
I've heard the track a few times now. I'm not a Beatles fan, so the need to like it doesn't mean anything to me. It's not the grabbiest song out there but I don't think it's terrible. There's certainly a few Beatles songs I'd rank below it already. It has a kind of movie soundtrack vibe, for some reason. All that said, I'm not sure how often I'll play it again - if at all.
I'm glad that that the song was rescued. Whether it's a single is the stuff of heated debates, but the surviving Beatles were happy to endorse it, so who am I to moan? I can choose to listen or not. It's not too far from what happened with Just A Notion (albeit all members of ABBA are alive and engaged) and I know there are many who would like Just Like That and other unreleased material to be similarly resurrected to sate our completist natures.
I think that this new Beatles track and Voyage are good examples of polarisation in fandom. There are those so utterly committed to their idols, that no criticism will be tolerated. And then there are those whose attitudes are less fixed, whose views get sneered at by both the Sacred Cow "praise, and praise only" crew, and the self-appointed arbiters of taste who think they get to decide what's cool or not. We've seen it here in many guises - whether it's in relation to TWTIA, or Voyage, or A+, or any given release or group member. It seems a little tragic that a bunch of (largely) middle-aged people should get so riled up because someone's opinion of a song/album/video/whatever differs from theirs. Nobody's obliged to like anything or even offer a reason for not liking it.
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Post by Alan on Nov 3, 2023 15:02:00 GMT
Not wanting to turn this topic to ABBA, but johnny’s and HOMETIME’s posts do make interesting comparisons. Not sure I noticed much over-the-top praise of Voyage (certainly not on here anyway) but the recent A+ is a different story. The whole “either love it or don’t say a word” brigade used some gutter tactics to stifle anyone who dared. And just yesterday, there was a particularly nasty attack on a forum member because of it. If it applies to The Beatles fans as well then at least it’s not exclusive to ABBA or Agnetha fans I suppose… |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2023 18:23:30 GMT
Of course, the Beatles' 60s 'rivals' the Stones have recently done a bit of a 'Voyage' with 'Hackney Diamonds', albeit after an 18-year rather than a 40-year studio-album hiatus. I certainly braced myself when I first listened to it the other day. But I have to say I was somewhat confounded and, front to back, found it really rather entertaining. Like 'Voyage', it's very much in that three/three-and-a-half stars bracket and (although lacking a genuine mega-classic, at least on first listen) is possibly a slightly more even album. Naturally, it's provoked the full range of reaction among fans and critics. Generally, though, it's been pretty well received - at least from what I've seen.
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Post by johnny on Nov 3, 2023 18:44:22 GMT
Chart News: because we can talk about chart stats
Now and Then enters UK chart at #42 - after 10 hours. The first 2 Voyage singles failed to make Top 100 the following day - afterv6 hours (they too released on a Thursday).
In Sales and Download Charts #1 on both - showing how small sales are. ISHFIY and DSMD entered at 9 and 10 the following day.
Thisboycries - The Rolling Stones album does seem more consistent than Voyage. It doesn't have the highs but neither the lows. So 3 o 3 and a half stars seems right, to me, for both.
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Post by Alan on Nov 3, 2023 18:52:33 GMT
Again, it’s released on a Thursday not a Friday, as with the first two Voyage singles and Agnetha’s single. Why do they do that? Surely much of the physical sales are going to be made by pre-orders on the Thursday. Is it that they think there will be more publicity on a Thursday and less interest on a Friday because it’s the start of the weekend? That overall sales/streams might be higher so it’s worth sacrificing a slightly higher chart position?
Is it really 18 years since the last Rolling Stones album? I thought they were quite prolific. Then again, 18 years is 2005, which doesn’t seem quite so long ago. How many of them are left now, two or three?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2023 19:16:10 GMT
Is it really 18 years since the last Rolling Stones album? I thought they were quite prolific. Then again, 18 years is 2005, which doesn’t seem quite so long ago. How many of them are left now, two or three? They did a covers album relatively recently, but HD is their first full album of new material since 05. It's now Mick, Keith and Ronnie Wood. I do love the fact that Ronnie's still regarded by the fans and indeed (I believe) by M & K as 'the new boy' even though he's been in the band since 1976! He's been a Stone even longer than I've been an ABBA fan but that still doesn't quite cut it! |
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Post by johnny on Nov 3, 2023 20:05:16 GMT
Why do they do that? Surely much of the physical sales are going to be made by pre-orders on the Thursday. Is it that they think there will be more publicity on a Thursday and less interest on a Friday because it’s the start of the weekend? That overall sales/streams might be higher so it’s worth sacrificing a slightly higher chart position? Alan, I think your instinct is right. More publicity on a Thursday and less on a Friday/weekend. So why not release on a Monday? Simply, week one would have 4 days sales, diminishing week 2 sales. Released on a Thursday, only giving up a few hours sales. This is especially true for the Voyage singles and Now + Then which were "news". It's not just physical sales for singles, which are tiny and probably not pre-ordered in the same way as albums but streaming too - which is important in the Singles Chart. I don't think the Agnetha single needed to go down this route. The Rolling Stones had a 2020 brand new single, Living in a Ghost Town - released at the height of lockdown. Very appropriate for the time. It got to #1 in Germany, their charts based on revenue and #61 in the UK, our charts streaming based. It got to #2 on the Sales Chart which seems closer to a revenue based chart than streaming based chart. |
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Post by Alan on Nov 3, 2023 20:50:43 GMT
Again, I don’t really want to sway the topic to ABBA, but…
The Rolling Stones in 2023 have three original members and five former members, three of whom are deceased.
The Beatles do have all four of them on this “new” record, but John Lennon only by a 1978 cassette recording and George Harrison via some mid-1990s input.
All four of ABBA’s official members recorded new input for Voyage. 39 years after their last completely new recordings were released and 40 years after their last album. And with a 35-year break in any recording activity.
Surely there has to be some sort of record there? All of a band/group’s official members rather than just some of them, and none of them only by archive contributions to something that was not originally intended as a group project?
Like most acts, “ABBA” wasn’t just the four of them. The likes of Michael Tretow, Ola Brunkert and Rutger Gunnarsson were not official members but made arguably equal contributions to the earlier ABBA recordings as the main four, but due to death or illness did not contribute to Voyage. With solo acts it’s even worse. Even the likes of Prince or Kate Bush, who had a lot of control, were not truly solo acts. It’s therefore very difficult to define but, in terms of acts with more than one official member, surely ABBA must have some sort of record? Does anyone know?
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Post by johnny on Nov 3, 2023 21:08:46 GMT
Pretty sure the 40 year gap between albums from the same original band members is some sort of record.
I can't think of anyone even coming close.
I liked Bjorn's quip at that re-launch on 2/09/21 where he said somehing like:
"Following the old adage: never let more than 40 years pass between albums". It raised a chuckle.
While I am not the greatest fan of Voyage, I give it 3 stars out of 5, I am not the biggest critic either.
But hats off to
1. At least a couple of brilliant songs.
2. Getting back after 40 years - and sounding great
3. Being age appropriate and not wanting to be "cool" 4. The huge commercial success of the album. This was not inevitable - despite the success of the old hits via GOLD and Mamma Mia!
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Post by gary on Nov 3, 2023 22:57:31 GMT
Despite my comparing ABBA fans’ and Beatles fans’ reaction to those acts’ recent material, there really is no comparison between the material itself. Voyage is a proper album by a group whose members are all alive and all feature on it. I may think that most of Voyage is substandard by ABBA’s very high standards, but coming back after 40 years with a brand new album is quite a feat. And it does have two good songs. Now and Then, on the other hand, is one song, and a song that John Lennon and George Harrison did not think much of. Lennon’s voice sounds artificial and McCartney, once one of the great pop singers, really cannot sing any more. It’s inferior to even Free As A Bird and Real Love.
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Post by Alan on Nov 3, 2023 23:56:00 GMT
The video is quite scary in my opinion, but in the age of AI, probably what we’re going to have to get used to more and more in the years to come.
You get the four of them in the 60s, the three of them circa 1995, the two of them now but mixed with the two dead ones as they were in the 60s, with the living two also getting that treatment in places. Is the 60s footage real or deep fake/AI-generated?
As I say, scary. I heard a bit of Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 today where he played a piece of what sounded like his voice, but fake and AI-generated. It sounded exactly like him.
In years to come, we’re not going to know what’s real and what isn’t.
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Post by richard on Nov 4, 2023 13:42:38 GMT
I wonder how many pop songs depend, crucially, on how they're arranged? A lot of them, I'd say. Few, that I've heard, give me the impression that their tunes would carry the day in any number of different arrangements. But of course the final recorded version of a track I like probably prejudices me against hearing a it done any differently.
I don't think Now and then is one of those special songs, so the arrangement matters more, imo, and, for me, it's just ok in this completed Beatles version. But I'm glad to hear it.
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Post by HOMETIME on Nov 4, 2023 22:09:19 GMT
I was thinking something similar, richard. In my mind, the song calls for a piano-based arrangement with moody strings. I seem to remember Benny once saying that he'd've loved to produce a John Lennon album. I'd like to hear this new song with Mr. Andersson at the desk. |
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Post by jj on Nov 5, 2023 7:17:07 GMT
I wonder how many times Bjorn asked Benny if they could add an extra note somewhere in a song to accommodate an extra syllable for a word Bjorn had written.
I also wonder if there are any ABBA songs where one line in a song (that corresponds to the same melodic line in the previous verse) has an extra note to accommodate a word which has one more syllable than the corresponding word in the previous verse.
Also the reverse of this, where a word is shorter by one syllable than the previous verse's corresponding word, that Benny agreed to cut that melodic line by one note to accommodate the shorter word Bjorn wished to use.
I wonder if I'm making any sense.
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Post by richard on Nov 5, 2023 11:26:02 GMT
jj , I'm sure those sorts of small adjustments between words and music - adding a note or lengthening a note or eliminating a note to accommodate a melody to a lyric - happen quite a bit. Offhand, I couldn't give specific examples of it with regard to Benny and Bjorn's songwriting, but no doubt they're there. I think one of the great composers of standard songs of the past, whose name escapes me, wouldn't change a note for his poor lyricist. But I bet songwriters who write both the words and music to their songs - Joni Mitchell, especially, springs to mind - can be very flexible!
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Post by johnny on Nov 5, 2023 12:53:31 GMT
I always felt the melody and lyrics to The Day Before You Came weren't synched in this particular line
"Oh yes, I'm sure my life was well within it's usual frame"
Those words sounded a bit gobbled up. Too wordy for the tune.
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Post by richard on Nov 5, 2023 13:47:50 GMT
Funny you should mention TDBYC, Johnny, because it has always struck me as a lyrically-driven song. So I wonder if - unlike the the vast majority of their songs where, I understand, the music came first - Björn, on this rare occasion, wrote the lyrics first.
Note to Alan:
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought this thread was intended to be for ad-hoc or off-the-cuff, non-musical, random thoughts/comments. At least I wonder if that was The Rubber Ball Man's idea for this thread? Recently the thread has specific music-related topics that perhaps could be more suitably posted elsewhere on the forum? Just a suggestion. What do you think? Maybe, because so few of us post, it doesn't matter much!
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Post by johnny on Nov 5, 2023 14:30:22 GMT
Richard, you are right on two counts.
1. The lyric driven TDBYC
2. This thread. As I said when I first posted about the "new" Beatles song I was going to start a new thread - but others posted here on that subject. And so did I then.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2023 14:48:49 GMT
"Oh yes, I'm sure my life was well within it's usual frame" They only get away with it by pronouncing 'usual' as 'use-yull' rather than 'use-you-ull' - so it's definitely a bit of a shoe-horn job. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2023 14:58:40 GMT
I wonder how many pop songs depend, crucially, on how they're arranged? A lot of them, I'd say. Few, that I've heard, give me the impression that their tunes would carry the day in any number of different arrangements. But of course the final recorded version of a track I like probably prejudices me against hearing a it done any differently. I don't think Now and then is one of those special songs, so the arrangement matters more, imo, and, for me, it's just ok in this completed Beatles version. But I'm glad to hear it. I think 'arranging' is comfortably the most underrated skill in music. The first thing that pops into my mind are all those classic Sinatra albums from the Capitol period - often quite simple songs that live or die by the arrangement. Interestingly, in his concert career, Sinatra made a habit of name-checking the arrangers of the songs he sang, as well as the songwriter. (Eg "here's another [say] Cole Porter song, with a great arrangement by [say] Nelson Riddle".) In fact, why don't I just post a link to provide an example... |
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Post by Alan on Nov 5, 2023 17:45:27 GMT
Note to Alan:Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought this thread was intended to be for ad-hoc or off-the-cuff, non-musical, random thoughts/comments. At least I wonder if that was The Rubber Ball Man's idea for this thread? Recently the thread has specific music-related topics that perhaps could be more suitably posted elsewhere on the forum? Just a suggestion. What do you think? Maybe, because so few of us post, it doesn't matter much! Valid point. I wasn’t sure how to split it as even The Beatles posts often mention other things. Apologies for the slightly clumsy title I’ve given it, but tried to allow for everything that’s been mentioned since the first Beatles post. @lycka’s Agnetha post has been moved to the Wrap Your Arms Around Me 40th/ “A” 10th anniversary thread: abbachat.boards.net/thread/123/wrap-arms-me-anniversaries |
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Post by richard on Nov 5, 2023 19:07:16 GMT
Thanks Alan. I think this new thread you've created covers our recent posts well - and, hopefully, will encompass more to come!
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Post by johnny on Nov 5, 2023 19:25:25 GMT
Early indications are that The Beatles will be #1 next week. It would be their first since 1969.
It makes me wish ABBA could have got a #1 with one of their first two Voyage singles. Yes, I know veteran acts don't have #1's now...well maybe they do now. Check out next week's chart.
I think The Beatles' PR was better with "last ever song" plus plenty of publicity about physical singles.
But I guess with the announcement.of a new album two months after the Voyage singles, fans just waited for that.
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Post by Alan on Nov 5, 2023 19:54:53 GMT
Interesting, johnny. I would have assumed that the Thursday release might have scuppered the chances of a number one hit but clearly not. Kate Bush set some records last year when Running Up That Hill finally reached number one, but The Beatles would far surpass that. Free As A Bird, in the era of physical-only sales, “only” made number 2, and Real Love number 4. |
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Post by johnny on Nov 5, 2023 20:10:42 GMT
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