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Post by madonnabba on Jun 17, 2019 9:29:26 GMT
With VV released last Friday, I wonder if it will chart this week and if so , how high? Still enjoy most of the tracks. And still question why IIWFTN was not released as a single at the time especially when it was considered at one point as the lead single and six other tracks then became singles in various territories...AGAN, VV,Angel eyes IHAD, Chiquitita and DYMK. Did the record companies lose faith in the song and consider the other songs more viable? And the video for Chiquitita just does not compliment the song....a Spanish flavoured song in the snow in front of a big snowman ⛄️.
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Post by foreverfan on Jun 17, 2019 10:00:42 GMT
I'd be very surprised if it charts, to expensive, small quantities, but you never know takes about 1000 sales these days to get into UK top 75 album chart so it would need to sell well...
As for ITWFTN! a condrum, that we will probably never know why.... like you said considered lead single to never be released, strange one..
Mind you on another thread I believe .. AGAN and personally KOF should've been singles and huge....strange choices at the time🙄
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Post by HOMETIME on Jun 17, 2019 11:09:58 GMT
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Post by Alan on Jun 17, 2019 16:43:28 GMT
I’ve always believed and understood that ABBA/Polar/Stig made the decisions on singles based on what their record companies around the world informed them. Two examples we know to be the case are Mamma Mia (which Australia wanted) and When All Is Said and Done (which was set to be the first single until the record company feedback showed a clear preference for One of Us).
Let’s face it, ABBA/Polar were in a very privileged position in having multiple major record companies around the world to call on. Feedback from each would be independent of each other, and if a majority favours one song over another, that’s what they go with.
Therefore based on this, it would seem that If It Wasn’t For The Nights wasn’t favoured. It’s also possible that Polar interpreted a lukewarm reception to it as a first single as a reason not to release it at any point further down the line.
Perhaps with Voulez-Vous it did go a bit wrong, as you had CBS-Epic openly disagreeing with the choice of the title track as a single but ABBA/Polar/Stig refusing to properly support Angeleyes.
I just honestly don’t think/believe single choices were as easily decided as some may think. Each was an informed and qualified decision based on what was fed back to them. That must undoubtedly be the reason IIWFTN fell at an early stage.
Personally I’ve never quite understood why that song would have been a good single. It’s an excellent song, one of my favourites, but It’s not a single. Similar with As Good As New, some love that and I understand it was number 1 in Mexico or somewhere. Again, excellent album track but not a single.
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Post by foreverfan on Jun 17, 2019 16:52:57 GMT
Strike me down.....
in in the U.K. Mid week charts, Voulez Vous is at 54.. remarkable...
Gold climbs to 27..
2 albums In the charts by Friday ?
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Post by gazman on Jun 17, 2019 22:59:26 GMT
Regarding the UK albums midweek chart placing at number 54, this will of course have been largely driven by the despatch of pre-order copies over the last 3 days - I would estimate perhaps 300 or so sales based on that chart placing.
With these orders now shipped, sales to the end of the week will likely only be follow-up orders or instore purchases. Say perhaps no more than 100 further copies? That would likely mean the album would sit just outside the top 100 by the weekend.
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Post by richard on Jun 18, 2019 18:38:47 GMT
With regard to choice of singles from VV:
Every time I watch the video of them on the Mike Yarwood Show, I'm convinced, yet again, that IIWFTN would have been a big hit single. Even without that video - in which Agnetha and Frida look stunning - I still have this opinion about the song, regardless of what record companies' listener panels might have told them. I also think AGAN and KOF could have been big hits. Indeed, with a few exceptions, I don't think the distinction between album track and single applies so much to ABBA from the Arrival album onwards.
A lot stems from how successful an artist is in a given period. Maybe that helped Queen to have the belief to release Bohemian Rhapsody as a single. (It paid off, but even now that seems an outrageously bold decision to have taken at the time.) ABBA, on the other hand, were perhaps too cautious about selecting singles and the number of them they released.
My feeling is that, provided the songs weren't an obvious no-no or patently uncommercial, once ABBA got into the 'hot zone' of approval they could have thrown dice, almost, to decide on singles and album tracks!
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Post by josef on Jun 18, 2019 18:58:34 GMT
I'm not so much bothered about songs that weren't released as singles as I am about songs without a proper video. How I wish ABBA had shot videos for, just as an example, Angeleyes and The Visitors. Those two really should have been given a video. It irks me that there isn't.
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Post by HOMETIME on Jun 18, 2019 21:32:13 GMT
I'm not so much bothered about songs that weren't released as singles as I am about songs without a proper video. How I wish ABBA had shot videos for, just as an example, Angeleyes and The Visitors. Those two really should have been given a video. It irks me that there isn't. Chiquitita deserved a proper video too, not some afterthought during the filming of a TV special after the single had left the charts. As for Angeleyes, I imagine that it would have been another lazy club-based performance video like DYMK and VV. It feels like Lasse was phoning it in that year. Compared to the majestic glamour of SNC, the 1979 videos are as dull as ditchwater. Then there is the glorified screensaver that was shoved out to "support" LAYLOM. Ugh! I wish the guys who did the video for TDBYC had been on board for the entirety of The Visitors project. They would not have issued that horribly lit clip for OOU. WAISAD would not have been so tired looking and a video for The Visitors might have been a proper dazzler. |
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Post by josef on Jun 18, 2019 21:55:04 GMT
I suspect because ABBA performed Chiquitita several times here and there (and other songs) they probably thought there was no need for an actual official video. I'm not having that. They can jolly well go back in time and record some!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 7:00:36 GMT
Personally I’ve never quite understood why that song would have been a good single. It’s not a single. 100% agree. I vividly remember first hearing it when they performed it on the 1978 Mike Yarwood Christmas Show and thinking "blimey, I hope that's not the next single". After the 'golden run' from SOS to TACOM, and the (relative) downward blip of SNC, they needed something top-drawer to demonstrate that they hadn't peaked and IIWFTN (for all its many merits) just wasn't it. To my ears, anyway. But the 'Voulez Vous' material clearly presented a problem from that perspective - where was the truly barnstorming single going to come from? Here's my take on it, which is still very much as it was way back in 1979: AGAN: Nice song, excellent album opener, never a single and certainly not on a par with the 'golden run' VV: My favourite from the album (I like it much more than many other fans do) BUT it felt like they were chasing the disco zeitgeist (albeit doing it very well, in my view) rather than setting their own agenda IHAD: A Christmas 'novelty' hit - no more than that. Angeleyes: Great pop song, decent single, but still a significant step down from the 'golden run' TKHLHC: Never, ever a single DYMK: Dumb fun perhaps, but it really worried me at the time because I feared it showed that genuine creative inspiration might be running dry IIWFTN: Solid, high-quality album track. Never a standout single. Would have been criticised for lacking the magic dust, if it had been released. Chiquitita: Nice song, but the 'Fernando' echoes always gave it a "haven't they done this before?" patina. 'ABBA-by-numbers' would be a crueller way of putting it. LLALL: Never, ever a single KOF: Cracking track, excellent album closer, never a single. An old rock star (Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull) once said that the hardest thing for any band is to compete with its own back catalogue. That was certainly the case with ABBA in 1979 - their 'golden run' had raised expectations that were almost impossible to meet. Credit to them, under that pressure, for producing an album as good as 'Voulez Vous'. |
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Post by foreverfan on Jun 19, 2019 8:17:33 GMT
From reading above, the only worthy single is Angeleyes ? The rest ok?
Wonderful thing that hindsight is, that it gives a better perspective on everything, I like the term " Golden Era" but in all reality it was exceptional, very few artists get to be that good for so long. Personally I still feel 79 was a continuation of that Golden era, albeit depending on what you call success. 6 top 5 singles is not what you would call failure ? Before Winner and ST, for me the era ended with OOU, and it was pretty dramatic fall from top 10s to not even making the top 20.. and it happened very quick..
Back to VV... I agree one of my all time favourites is VV track, a 12 inch mega mix here in Europe would have been fantastic, but alas... I expect none of us will actually agree if it was the right choices in singles, in fact I guess all of them could've been at some point, even LLALL! I do feel ABBA should have taken a few more risks in singles, more variety... Hole inYour Soul for instance, Eagle in the UK , WAISAD to mention 3...
over all VV album was actually packed full of singles more than any other ? and I believe they all could've been hits, top 10s, number ones , different story...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 8:58:55 GMT
I suppose I'm saying that, at the time, it felt like the ABBA quality graph blipped down a bit in 1979 (from a very, VERY high level) and that hadn't happened before. Don't get me wrong - 'Voulez-Vous' is an excellent album and every track on it would have been a big hit if it had been released as a single (Top 3, Top 5, Top 10 or whatever). It's just that I was used to ABBA delivering mega-hit and mega-classic after mega-hit and mega-classic, so I wanted/expected more than just 'big hits' from them. My view hasn't fundamentally changed from that day to this: if it had been my call, I think I'd have released the following singles in 1979: 'Voulez-Vous' (on a 'just go for it' basis - ABBA does disco!!!!); then 'Angeleyes'; then 'Chiquitita' just to fill the gap before 'GGG'; then 'IHAD' for Crimbo. Having said that, I actually don't think it would have made a smidgeon of difference in terms of overall/average chart placings compared with the singles they DID release!
To put it another way, if 'Eagle', say, had appeared on 'Voulez-Vous', it would have had 'first single' written all over it.
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Post by madonnabba on Jun 19, 2019 9:08:56 GMT
I too love As good as New and Kisses of fire but suspect they would have been Top 5. I like DYMK but I think Angel eyes and Voulez Vous could have been singles in their own right. I too thought that Chiquitita was a nod to Fernando but it was a massive hit in the Spanish world. Would probably have been better as a stand alone single and SNC replacing it on VV. it would have fitted better on the album leaving only IHAD out of place. Better videos may have helped the chart positions.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 14:46:11 GMT
We all have varied views on what would have made the best Singles off 'Voulez Vous'.
In the Global Charts the 'Voulez Vous' Single never reached the Top 10. This is due to it not doing very well in
the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Germany. The German Market was ABBA's biggest in Continental
Europe, but the Single failed to reach the Top 10 - No.14. 'Does Your Mother Know' had only reached No.10 there,
so that was 2 'Voulez Vous' Singles in a row that Germany was not impressed with. I'm pretty sure that 'As Good
As New' would have been Top 3 there. As well as in the UK, where DJ Paul Gambaccini had predicted it as a No.1,
as had more than one UK Music Paper. Alas it ended up stuck on 'Voules Vous'.
Yes, I've noticed that some Fans saying that 'As Good As New' was 'not single material', but, it shows how we differ.
I don't think that 'Does Your Mother Know' was Singles material, but it still ended up reaching the Top 5, in several
Countries. It was not the right Single to release at the same time as the Album, though. I'm pretty sure that is one
reason why it, (the 'Voulez Vous' Album), failed to reach a UK Million Sale. It sold about 800,000 in the UK - far below
the Sales of 'Arrival' and 'The Album'. Indeed, 'Arrival' sold more than double 'Voulez Vous' in the UK - 1,700,000.
In the Pan European Charts, 'Chiquitita', and 'I Have A Dream' were No.1 Hits. As was 'Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!'.
All 3 were No.1 for more than 1 Week. 'Summer Night City' was No.1 in one Pan European Chart and No.2 in another'.
As was 'Does Your Mother Know'. But neither were No.1 for more than 1 Week, and they were not as big as most ABBA
Singles were, in those Mid to Late 1970's Pan European Charts. 'Voulez Vous' was a No.3 Hit in one Pan European Chart
and No.4 in the other. So, those last 3 Singles were not truly huge Pan European Hits, and the first 3 were much bigger...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 18:37:25 GMT
As someone who wasn't born until '85, I find it doesn't seem right that, for a group who were and are still so huge, that ABBA only really had 2 albums that were massive sellers purely because of the music (and one of those was a "Greatest Hits" collection).
Now I know that most big acts only have 1 exceptionally successful "era" but, for a group who are the biggest selling group after The Beatles, (who didn't start to have a relatively floppy period until 1966, about 7 albums in as well) the sales in the UK for The Album and Voulez-Vous seem a bit lacklustre. It's even more baffling to me, particularly when single sales were at their highest ever during that time and ABBA couldn't score a single number 1 hit in 1979.
By the way I am one of the handful of people that helped VV get back into the midweek chart this week haha
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 19:09:14 GMT
Don't forget: Abba is not only famous in UK. In the Netherlands the album Voulez-vous peaked 5 weeks at number 1 and was 49 weeks in the charts.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 19:12:15 GMT
The Album also peaked 5 weeks at number 1 and was 37 weeks in the charts.
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Post by Alan on Jun 19, 2019 19:29:00 GMT
AGAN: Nice song, excellent album opener, never a single and certainly not on a par with the 'golden run' IIWFTN: Solid, high-quality album track. Never a standout single. Would have been criticised for lacking the magic dust, if it had been released. KOF: Cracking track, excellent album closer, never a single. That’s a good assessment. It’s these three tracks that are usually argued as the should-have-been singles. All of them are excellent, can’t be faulted, but they just aren’t obvious singles. There’s nothing at all wrong with that. Singles have to have that additional something. It doesn’t necessarily make them better songs, but they’re designed to appeal to a much wider audience. Even today, As Good As New still screams “opening album track”, the same as it did in 1979. It sets the scene perfectly for what’s to come. |
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Post by richard on Jun 19, 2019 19:41:49 GMT
I agree with much of what onlyabbaforme wrote. I take it when it's said, unequivocally, that this or that ABBA song is 'not a single' that that's not intended as a negative ref!ection on the intrinsic qualities of that song - or is it? When I listen to the VV album, or any ABBA album from, say, Arrival, am I hearing a number of songs which, though still very good, are of lesser quality compared to their big No.1 singles...such as Super Trouper? This song is not highly regarded by some ABBA fans - not a classic, not representative of the best of ABBA. Yet it's in the top half of their best-selling singles when it came out, in the UK, anyway. I wonder what went wrong?  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 19:46:30 GMT
In the Netherlands the single Voulez-vous peaked at 3 and was in the charts for 14 weeks, in Belgium it peaked at 1 an was in the charts for 13 weeks.
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Post by shoshin on Jun 19, 2019 22:12:35 GMT
Personally I’ve never quite understood why that song would have been a good single. It’s not a single. 100% agree. I vividly remember first hearing it when they performed it on the 1978 Mike Yarwood Christmas Show and thinking "blimey, I hope that's not the next single". After the 'golden run' from SOS to TACOM, and the (relative) downward blip of SNC, they needed something top-drawer to demonstrate that they hadn't peaked and IIWFTN (for all its many merits) just wasn't it. To my ears, anyway...
...whereas to my ears, IIWFTN would indeed have been that top-drawer continuation of the golden run; the closest they ever got to reprising the dual-lead exhilaration of Dancing Queen. Competition for no.1 was tough in late December and January '79, so it may not have surpassed Chiquitita's chart position. But Chiquitita was a diversion, albeit a lovely one. IIWFTN would have bridged the transition from TACOM to VV and GGG.
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Post by josef on Jun 19, 2019 22:49:33 GMT
I certainly like IIWFTN a lot. Single material? Maybe. Who knows? I agree the verses are very strong. Perhaps the chorus is rather repetitive (usually a winner with me- repetition is important). I'd like to think it would have been a smash hit. The girls certainly looked great at this time, singing (well, miming) and swaying their hips with abandon.
Yes, I think it's highly likely it would have been successful, if not here in the UK then definitely elsewhere in Europe. There's this weird idea that if it's not a hit here then it's somehow not as important. Balls to that.
I wish it had been released instead of Does Your Mother Know. I've had moments of getting on ok with that song but it mostly just irritates me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 6:47:18 GMT
I wish it had been released instead of Does Your Mother Know. I've had moments of getting on ok with that song but it mostly just irritates me. For me, the REALLY weird thing about DYMK is that it deliberately sets out to be a bit irritating. Even down to the 'babyish' backing vocals in the chorus. Makes it an even stranger choice for a single, in my book. I suppose you could say it was ABBA demonstrating the ability not to take themselves too seriously, blah-blah-blah. But they'd done 'fun' songs before which hadn't grated nearly so much. Could you even argue that 'MMM' falls into that category? I totally agree with shoshin that IIWFTN would have been a better choice than DYMK. As would everything else on the VV album apart from TKHLHC, LLALL and (as a springtime release) IHAD. Picking up on Richard's comment, I suppose my take on selecting singles would be: (i) they may well not be the best songs on an album; (ii) they may offer that indefinable 'something' that would make them perfect for radio play, perfect as a stand-alone item, ferociously earwormy etc etc etc. Of course, pop history is littered with songs that, by rights, 'shouldn't' have been singles but which enjoyed epic success in that format - BoRhap being the most obvious. And as I said/implied before, anything from VV would have been a Top 10 single in the UK. At the time, though, I was setting a higher bar for ABBA in terms of chart success. That's why the underwhelming chart performance of SNC had been so disappointing and, frankly, a bit shocking. |
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Post by Alan on Jun 20, 2019 8:14:54 GMT
I’m not sure I’d even say that IIWFTN would have been a better choice than Does Your Mother Know to be honest. It’s very difficult not to be biased on this as the singles are far more familiar than album tracks as we’ve heard them a lot more.
Had some album tracks been singles and some singles just been album tracks, it would surely alter our thinking. The album tracks are much less familiar and therefore still - to this day - sound more fresh. I said earlier about As Good As New screaming from the rooftops that it’s the solid, opening album track. And then Voulez-Vous which, in 40 years, I’ve probably heard at least 10 times as often.
Perhaps If It Wasn’t For The Nights benefits heavily from this. I certainly think I’d have got bored of it had it been released instead of Chiquitita.
I Have A Dream, I would say, is the more suspect choice of a single than Does Your Mother Know. Released well after the album (and even after a Greatest Hits it didn’t appear on), it’s always suggested to me that they released that purely to cash in on the success of the tour, Christmas and the Year of the Child. I’d still love to know if it really was always intended to be a single or whether it was chosen because a) disco was dying and b) they had nothing new available (or at least nothing new that they weren’t saving until the next album).
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Post by madonnabba on Jun 20, 2019 8:51:06 GMT
When I got the VV album I never thought of IHAD as a contender for release as a single. Did have that feeling for IIWFTN and on other albums Eagle, Tiger(at the time), Move On, Andante Andante, Happy New Year, The Visitors, STMF and WAISAD. However it was another sizeable hit and was another Abba Song which reached No .1 but for Westlife. Not sure why they released it so long after the album and with GGG in between. Maybe they had intended to release another new release but had nothing good enough to release and looked at what went down well at the concerts and with it being year of the child , the song was best placed with the choir .
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Post by foreverfan on Jun 20, 2019 8:58:54 GMT
Alan ^^^^Agree totally regarding IHAD, it's such a strange track, to little bit bubblegum after the previous singles, and personally think it was a "cash in" on those above markets.. not that that is wrong in anyway after all it's a business, and it's up to us the individual to participate in buying the product or not...
Again I have to agree ^Alan^ familiarity does have a tendency to skew perception of certain tracks, ( I'd love to know how many times I've heard for instance DQ compared to HHHelen.. both I really like, but 1000s difference of listenings in both ) .
So I take the arguement regarding IIWFTN, it is still " fresh" in comparison, so our thoughts are equally skewed to thinking it's better..
Alan ^^^ very good case ...
loving this thread, about probably my favourite album...at least it's got some of us talking again....!! 🤔
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 9:10:07 GMT
I’m not sure I’d even say that IIWFTN would have been a better choice than Does Your Mother Know to be honest. At the time, one of my main problems with DYMK was that it was manna from heaven for ABBA haters - the ones who dismissed them as naff pop froth on a par with, for example, Brotherhood of Man. How could I persuasively argue that they were actually gifted, many-hued songwriters and performers when DYMK was clogging up the airwaves for a couple of months? I know it sold 'OK' and maybe did better than, say, IIWFTN might have done in chart terms, but did it do any short/medium-term reputational damage to ABBA by sending out the wrong signals about what and who they were? Would GGG have hit number 1 in the UK if earlier 1979 single releases hadn't eroded ABBA's standing a bit in the eyes of the single-buying public? If they'd just released Chiquitita and then VV/Angeleyes and left a bit of a gap, GGG might have had more impact. There were arguably too many ABBA singles of less than top quality in the first 6 months or so of that year and an ABBA release was no longer an 'event'. Totally agree about album tracks often benefitting reputationally from never having been tested in the white-hot fires of daytime radio playlists. My personal view (sorry, shoshin) is that, had it been a single, IIWFTN might have been destined for 'More ABBA Gold' rather than 'ABBA Gold'. And I'd say IHAD had cash-in written all over it! Nothing necessarily wrong with that, as the music business is a business after all and spotting/seizing opportunities is a skill in itself. But its release definitely seemed like an afterthought - albeit a reasonably lucrative one! |
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Post by HOMETIME on Jun 20, 2019 18:36:37 GMT
As for I Have A Dream, I still maintain that the live version should have been released - ideally as the lead track from a live EP. Kate Bush had successfully trodden that path with Them Heavy People leading a live EP. It could have been tarted up in the studio like The Way Old Friends Do was for the Super Trouper album....
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Post by Alan on Jun 20, 2019 21:37:22 GMT
I do remember being incredibly disappointed that I Have A Dream was not the live version. I must have seen the live video on TV and expected the single to have the same. The fact that the b-side was live somehow wasn’t adequate compensation. If you’re going to have a live video and a live photo as the artwork (and in the Epic edition, a lavish gatefold souvenir cover), please don’t disappoint us by having the familiar studio version on the record.
That was probably the most exciting thing about the original ABBA Live album (1986) - finally, the live version of I Have A Dream!
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