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Post by richard on Jan 23, 2020 15:21:27 GMT
The argument that the ' less heard, so fresher, album tracks' may cause some fans to think that 'this' or 'that' album track should have been a single, might have some merit when applied to those ABBA fans whose interest in the group has been confined to 'Gold', mostly, but otherwise I don't find it at all convincing. But it has surfaced again in the 'Can it be true?' thread as it did in the thread about the reissue of the Voulez-Vous album.
For me - and the majority of fans on this forum? - the album tracks are as familiar as the singles; and nowadays, in terms of my listening to and appreciating the songs, I don't really draw a distinction between the two. However, there are certainly some album tracks which I prefer and regard as superior musically, (just my value-judgement, of course), to some of the singles.
On the other hand, I wonder if Benny and Bjorn, and most ABBA fans today, do actually think the singles were/are the better songs than the album tracks, (and that's a legitimate, if arguable, point of view), or simply more commercial - or both? Some ABBA tracks, one being KMKY, strike me as combining, brilliantly, quality with commercial success. However, as I've argued in the 'Can it be true?' thread, the successful singles have become a fait accompli, and their special magic for listeners at the time may not have been confined to them had some other songs been chosen for singles.
So is commercial success the defining factor, for some, of quality and 'magic'? Were the singles a commercial success because they have the magic or - just as likely, in my opinion - thay have the magic as viewed, retrospectively, from the perspective of their commercial success? I contend that had some other (album) tracks been chosen for singles they would also have been commercially successful, and now be seen as having that special (single) magic, too. And for me they do, anyway, without having been singles.
What do you think?
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Post by gazman on Jan 23, 2020 16:30:14 GMT
My feeling is that the 'magic', as you put it, led to the commercial success. It doesn't make non-single album tracks any less magical for me, in the main, although of course there are many songs in the ABBA catalogue that would not have worked well as a single...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 18:32:13 GMT
Richard, this is indeed a very interesting topic to start a discussion. I am of the opinion that the timeless quality of ABBA's songs have contributed to their commercial success. Bjorn and Benny's clever composition structure, the beautiful melodies, diverse lyric matter, Agnetha and Frida's wonderful story-telling vocals are crucial elements to their success and appeal. KMKY, SOS, TWTIA, TNOTG, DQ, MM to name but a few are in a league of their own and showcase the band's outstanding genius. However, there are contenders which I consider could have been potential hits but were sadly relegated to album track status and are just as dynamic as the big hits. ITWFTN is a sweeping disco giant, WIKTT, joyful pop, Eagle, a soaring majestic anthem. Others are dark and menacing, TV for example ( you can compare ABBA to Joy Division when you listen to this track ). There are so many ( not counting some of the songs on the " Ring Ring " and " Waterloo " studio albums ). Those aside, whether single or album track, these songs are bonafide pop masterpieces and it doesn't matter if many of us fans prefer the album tracks to the singles. Everyone has different tastes. We could " burn the midnight oil " with this subject. Great post !
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Post by Zeebee on Jan 23, 2020 20:52:10 GMT
The album tracks are as familiar to me as the singles, but I feel that IIWFTN and As Good As New should have been released as singles.
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Post by richard on Jan 24, 2020 15:14:00 GMT
So many great songs - singles or album tracks - as Edmund points out.
It occurs to me that perceptions about the qualities and commercial potential of singles or album tracks will be influenced by timing (as related to popularity of an artist at a given time) and/or stylistic fashions in music. Would SOS have been an even bigger hit (it got to No.6 in the UK) had it been released in '76? Would Money Money Money have got as high as No.3 at any other time? Maybe WIKTT, had it been released as a single at that time, would have reached No.1? I love MMM, including Frida's sassy presentation of the song, but WIKTT really sounds to my ears, now, like the one with single magic, at least musically. (I would have preferred different lyrics, though.)
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Post by stepalm on Jan 24, 2020 17:17:19 GMT
As you said before I think timing plays a big part. After the failure of SNC, wich was very surprising after so many sucessful singles, maybe ABBA got scared to release another discosong and choose Chiquitita also due to the Unicef Concert. When the album came I never fancied IIWFTN that much. I thought VV and Lovers where better. But i guess disco was already out of style so maybe that played a role not to release IIWFTN. Neither did they play it in ABBA in Switzerland. I actually never heard anyone of ABBA commenting on that song. Still so many fans seem to love it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 17:20:09 GMT
Richard, overall I think that Benny & Bjorn were more than happy with the songs that were released as singles and most of them achieved huge success and rightfully so because they are timeless. There were exceptions of course. I think they weren't too convinced with SNC but the song became a top ten hit in quite a few countries. Sorry Stepalm you have pipped me to the post with your views re SNC and ITWFTN. However, I, too would have preferred WIKTT to MMM as single material. Also, I would have liked IIWFTN to have seen the light of day and maybe quite a few others. But would ABBA have enjoyed immense success with these. Quite possibly yes but then on the other hand it is difficult to conclude. I find this post fascinating and could elaborate " for England " ( so to speak ).
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Post by stepalm on Jan 25, 2020 11:01:13 GMT
I want to add that I do like Summernight City, but I prefere the longer version with that beautiful intro. By the way does anyone know if it is both Agnetha, Frida and Bjorn or just Frida and Bjorn. I also love the video but then I think the song doesnt have the same magic or hooks that we are used to. But i do think SMC had become a perfect song live for ABBA where it becomes more rocky. Concerning IIWFTN I like the lyrics and I like that Frida and Agnetha have one line each but they could have used that more. I recently heard the song played in a gay bar and didnt even react that it was ABBA. I first just thought it sounded familiar and very american disco. Then I heard that familiar sound of Frida and Agnetha. But also here I think we dont get those hooks that we are spoiled with. I liked Lovers because of that sassy voice of Frida and the same with Agnethas solo songs on Voulez vous. But when they sing in unison all through a song I miss the build up of voices and also the lyrics becomes less touching (like in Angeleyes). I think The name of the game is a perfect song with shared solo parts and lots of things going on and still you can distinct there different solo parts wich fits with the part of the song.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 17:27:33 GMT
Stepalm, I think Bjorn, Frida and Agnetha all share vocals on the full length version of SNC. To be honest I have never really been too fussed with SNC ( long or edited version ). I much prefer IIWFTN because it is such a great song with a sweeping chorus and powerful disco vibe. It is interesting that you prefer SNC to ITWFTN. Your comments regarding TNOTG are spot on. A wonderful song with heavenly alchemic vocals. In light of Richard's topic I feel I could elaborate further. For a start, I would have liked SOS to have reached a much higher position than No 6. It is a classic pop song. KOF should have been released as an A-side and not DYMK. I'm certain ABBA would have achieved greater success with this disco gem rather than DYMK ( which doesn't really float my boat ).Sometimes I feel, Epic Records let ABBA down. Why didn't they award the band with a record sales accolade for TWTIA in 1980 ? A beautiful timeless anthem of heartbreak which was criminally shunned at the time. This has always baffled me. Would ABBA have enjoyed success with the release of HNY ? A yearning festive favourite which I think would have made a big impact in the charts back then. Was it a good move on behalf of the record company to have released WAISAD in only a few countries ? Again, another powerhouse of loss and regret that could have been a massive hit globally. What if Cassandra and TDBYC had been put out as a double single ? Would the songs had fared a lot better chartwise in the UK ? Quite possibly, as the former features dynamic story-telling vocals of inevitable doom and gloom and the latter a haunting swansong of theatrical quality. If Agnetha and Frida had recorded IKHSW I am certain the song would have been just as huge as Elaine Paige and Barbara Dickson's interpretation. Lastly, if the band had reformed during the mid-eighties and completed the much talked about studio album " Opus 10 " I feel ABBA would have reaped the rewards. So many questions that will remain unanswered and left for us fans to draw our own conclusions.
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Post by richard on Jan 25, 2020 20:21:00 GMT
The essential import of my OP is that I disagree with the view to the effect that "X is a good opening album track, but let's leave it at that". I think there a number ABBA 'Xs' that are better than that view kind of implies! And it's been argued that ABBA could have released more singles, anyway. I think Colin (onlyabba4me) has mentioned that elsewhere on this forum.
And I think that ties in with some of the possibilities Edmund mentions. I happen to think Happy New Year has a beautiful and poignant melody - one of the guys' best creations. (Didn't they want to make it the basis of a mini musical?)
I wish HNY had had a different concept for its lyrics so that it wasn't confined pretty much to a narrow window of the year. Now if Bjorn could somehow have re-jigged the lyrics of Our Last Summer - a song I can't quite take to for some reason - to fit HNY, then I think HNY could have been a massive, classic, single, albeit a slow ballad.
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Post by stepalm on Jan 25, 2020 20:25:53 GMT
@edmfio76 , I enjoyed reading your post. I didnt mean i like SNC better then IIWFTN. I like both of them but I understand why they didnt become the big hits that most songs became. I never liked DYMK but strangely i have heard a lot of friends who are not ABBA fans that have memories of it and like the song. So i think the sucess of ABBA is that they have tried different styles even with the singles that has widened the fan base. With the album VV wich was a disco album its kind of funny that the biggest hits Chiquitita and IHAD wasnt disco at all. The song i was most sad about that wasnt a single is WAISAD but even here i agree that the song misses something to make it a masterpiece. But instead i love Fridas vocals on it and would even like to hear a new version with only piano and Frida in a more ballad style. A bit like the pianoversion of Another morning without you. Also i agree with you on TV and I think this could have prolonged there success since it shows a new modern side of ABBA and also both TV and WAISAD have great and personal lyrics. I think it was a huge mistake that have Agnetha on lead on all the 5 last singles from LAYLOM to UA. I never understood why since they always had shared the lead singles between them. With this I dont wanna say anyting bad about Agnetha since I love them equally and i like ABBA best when we have a bit of both.
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Post by Alan on Jan 25, 2020 21:40:34 GMT
The essential import of my OP is that I disagree with the view to the effect that "X is a good opening album track, but let's leave it at that". I think there a number ABBA 'Xs' that are better than that view kind of implies! And it's been argued that ABBA could have released more singles, anyway. I think Colin (onlyabba4me) has mentioned that elsewhere on this forum. It’s also been argued that that really would not have been a good idea. The norm in the 70s was two or three singles per album. ABBA somehow got away with it with Voulez-Vous (the ABBA album doesn’t count as Mamma Mia wasn’t originally intended as a single, and it’s also likely I Have A Dream was an “extra”), but more singles would have risked serious over-exposure and fatigue. Certainly the truly classic period (everything from SOS to Take A Chance on Me) is untouchable. I may not like the title or subject matter of Money Money Money, but I certainly can’t deny the production or strong hooks. And what’s wrong with good opening tracks? They were indeed strong choices. Not one of them weak. As Good As New screams out loud, “I am a strong opening track, designed to remain fresh with repeated listenings and preparing for what’s to come”. As indeed do When I Kissed The Teacher and The Visitors. It doesn’t make them single choices (they aren’t) but also doesn’t take away their greatness. I would love to know a lot more about how singles were chosen. They had to be by committee - the record company licensees all giving their votes and comments. Based on that, the likes of If It Wasn’t For The Nights and When All Is Said and Done (in Europe at least) presumably met with a lukewarm to stone cold response. I would imagine CBS in the UK perhaps did favour If It Wasn’t For The Nights - hence its prime time Christmas Day UK debut on the Mike Yarwood Show - but reaction elsewhere in Europe wasn’t so hot. The music industry is ruthless, so once a song is damned, there’s no attempt at resurrecting it later. And this is possibly a reason why CBS later declared open warfare on Polar by favouring Angeleyes. Annoyed that their previous favourite was vetoed, they had enough clout to decide a third single in their territories. And were rewarded by it becoming a substantial hit, with no support by ABBA or Polar whatsoever. Things happen for a reason, they aren’t necessarily random (or wrong) choices. ABBA post-classic period (late 1978 to 1982) was difficult at times. The Winner Takes It All aside, there wasn’t too much to write home about. If record companies did make some bad decisions, it was ultimately down to ABBA not quite coming up with the goods. At the same time, the classic period (late 1975 to mid 1978) shouldn’t have be tainted by sub-standard choices just for the sake of it. When I Kissed The Teacher? Absolutely not. Don’t insult this song by trying to foist greatness on it. I would say, absolutely leave it as it is! |
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Post by richard on Jan 25, 2020 23:15:45 GMT
Nothing wrong at all with good opening album tracks, Alan. but I don't preclude them being good singles, as well! I certainly don't accept that it's some sort of insult to WIKTT to think it could have been a highly successful single. My honest opinion? Absolutely yes!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 23:57:57 GMT
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading and contributing to Richard's post and will continue to do so as it brings so many different angles of discussion to the forefront such as an interesting idea that Alan has raised in respect of how the songs were chosen as singles etc. Also, thank you to Stepalm for your comments.
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Post by josef on Jan 26, 2020 12:12:54 GMT
Foist greatness on it? It IS great! No foisting required.
Could argue the toss 'til the cows come home over whether certain songs 'deserved' to be singles or "just" album tracks. Certainly, to be an album opener is an accolade in itself - Eagle, When I Kissed The Teacher, As Good As New...all stupendous album openers and they have a crown of their own just for that very position. Should/could they have been singles? Quite possibly. Maybe. There was over-saturation to consider. People DO get sick of something even if it's good quality. The thing to remember is not every song could be a single. Just impossible. So we NEEDED cracking album tracks that were as good as the singles, yeah? Personally, I think When I Kissed The Teacher is like sunshine. It's like aural serotonin or something! Am I bothered it wasn't a single? Not particularly. We still have it. I'd like it to be more widely know but then millions bought the albums, so...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 14:00:30 GMT
I am not foisting Richard's post. It is very interesting as so many different sides to the discussion come to light. I thought the topic was regarding the quality and commercial success of ABBA's music and not opening album tracks. Is it so wrong for a fan to express ideas regarding what could have been ?
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Post by richard on Jan 26, 2020 14:35:47 GMT
For a commercially-minded group, as ABBA obviously were, maybe they did regard their successful singles as representing, for the most part, their best work? But for me, listening to their songs now, four decades after their heyday, I don't hear them that way. I don't care which were singles and which remained album tracks; and I'll enjoy either, on an equal footing, as the mood takes me.
That said, when I listen to album tracks of the groups I like, including ABBA, I sometimes find myself preferring some of these tracks to a number of their singles. (Don't we all sometimes, by the way?) And that's definitely not a case of my being stubbornly contrarian for the sake of it against the singles! 😀
But I'm guessing that lots of fans - along with Benny and Bjorn, possibly? - think the singles are, in the main, the best of ABBA, combining, optimally, musical value with commercial success. It's just that I think a number of ABBA's album tracks would now be regarded the same way as those singles had those album tracks become singles, too. That's all. And there's no arguing with Josef's point that they couldn't all be singles, anyway!
But I'm repeating myself in this thread. I'll keep quiet now. 😉
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Post by josef on Jan 26, 2020 16:09:40 GMT
@edmfio76,
Edmund. I'm referring to When I Kissed The Teacher, not this actual thread. My post wasn't directed at you just because it came directly after yours. I'm just responding to the thread and the thoughts of other members who contribute.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 16:37:17 GMT
Josef, what am I like ! I really thought Richard's post was good as there are many sides to this topic that could be discussed so I enjoyed contributing with my personal thoughts and views. WIKTT is a song that I absolutely love and you are right we do have it on album. I believe it is one of Bjorn's favourites or is it Benny's ? I enjoy inter-acting with all of you on this forum and would like to carry on. No offence, Richard, I think I could have mis-interpreted the points that you were trying to convey. Personally, I would rate nearly all of ABBA's songs of a very high standard because they are timeless pop masterpieces whether singles or non-singles with the exception of a couple on the studio albums, " Ring Ring " and " Waterloo ". " Rock Me " either isn't exactly vintage ABBA is it ? I am not at all fussed if you prefer ABBA's album tracks to some of the big hits. All of us have different tastes. What I really enjoy the most is reviewing, analysing and breaking down each ABBA song into sections ( if you know what I mean ). Please feel free to continue with this post.
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Post by richard on Jan 26, 2020 17:23:45 GMT
You've not misinterpreted me, Edmund, and I actually agree with much you have to say! And thanks for contributing to this thread. I must say I'm pleased how it seems to have taken off and I enjoy reading all the responses. It's just that I haven't anything to add at the moment.
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Post by abbaprofessor on Jan 27, 2020 10:12:05 GMT
Off topic a bit really, I have always wondered why people call Agnetha the lead singer of Abba. But when you look closer , she did sing the lead vocals on the 5 last singles AND the first single from the last 3 studio albums had her singing lead. I read somewhere they , who they ? , thought she had the more commercial voice and that is why they started to favor her. Then again, in the big markets West Germany, England and Australia Frida - lead vocal singles spent much more weeks at number one than Agnetha- singles so it does not make sense.
When all is said and done was meant to be the follow -up single to OOU but HOH was released instead because they, again who they ? the UK record company ? thought WAISAD was a wrong choice being yet another break- up song and HOH would show a " happier " Abba. That decision was really calculating , skipping a single with much more hit potential because trying to save Abbas happy image so I don´t mind HOH flopping . So Frida sort of by accident lost a lead -vocals single there.
When TDBYC and UA were released Frida´s solo career was already going on so it may have been a subconcious decision to have Agnetha singing lead so that people dont mix Abba singles with Frida solo singles, who knows.
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Post by richard on Jan 27, 2020 13:39:30 GMT
Inadvertently, I think you've opened up a potentially interesting 'can of worms', which unfortunately cannot be pursued for fear of starting tiresome Agnetha vs Frida nonsense.*
The role that looks play in commercial success, and, related to this, whether preference for someone's looks and or persona might get conflated with one's perceptions about the quality of the music - I'm sure it does happen - is another interesting question, I think. But not for this forum.*
* This is only what I feel, obviously. Of course, it's the Moderator's decision.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2020 18:43:55 GMT
Returning to the subject of quality and commercial success, also, I think ABBA achieved immense success as a group worldwide because of the diversity of each song whether a big hit or album track.
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