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Post by bennybjorn on Dec 31, 2022 13:05:06 GMT
Surprised there's been no chat about Bjorn's Radio 4 stint unless in another thread?
A few things of note.
Although the UK gave Waterloo 'nul points' so did 5 or 6 other countries.
And it won Eurovision with the fewest ever points.
The specially recorded version of a Voyage song was (unfortunately) Little Things, done with a choir.
The singing was nice enough but the words sounded even worse to me than the original version with posh choir folk singing them.
Oh well...
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Post by richard on Dec 31, 2022 13:15:38 GMT
Didn't know those facts about Waterloo. I think Si, which came second, should have won it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2022 13:20:17 GMT
BennyBjorn I read a bit in the Telegraph about Eurovision 1974 - and Bjorn's conspiracy theory disproved because as you mentioned other countries gave "null points".Here is that interview www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/30/abba-bjorn-ulvaeus-wrong-eurovision-conspiracy-theory/ In those days with far fewer countries competing the top mark was 5 - so overall marks were low. ABBA won on 24 points. It was not the lowest ever but 3rd lowest. 18 points for the 4 way tie winners in 1969 and 21 points for the 1959 winner. The familiar voting system 12 pts, 10 pts, 8 pts and down to 1 point was introduced the year after ABBA won in 1975. Here is a list of winners and points. See desktop mode to look at the points totals eurovisionworld.com/eurovisionHere are the results of 1974 contest. Scroll down for individual results. Belgium, Monaco, Italy and Greece along with the UK failed to give points to ABBA. Only Finland ans Switzerland gave top marks.[br eurovisionworld.com/eurovision/1974 |
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Post by gazman on Jan 1, 2023 10:49:25 GMT
In those days with far fewer countries competing the top mark was 5 - so overall marks were low. ABBA won on 24 points. Theoretically, a country could actually get up to 10 points per jury under that particular Eurovision voting system - because there were 10 jurors in each country, who each had 1 point to give for the song of their choice. It so happened that ABBA received 5 points each from both Switzerland and Finland in 1974, which was more than enough to push them clear of second-placed Italy. Under that particular voting system, the biggest Eurovision beneficiary was Dana (Ireland), who received 9 votes out of 10 from Belgium at the 1970 Contest - allowing her to win 6 points ahead of the UK... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2023 13:48:52 GMT
The voting system was screwed.
1970. It looks like each juror had individual vote. Belgium allocated 9 to Ireland and 1 to Monaco. All a country's votes added up to ten.
1971/2/3 - Countries gave marks to ALL countries except own of course
1974 - Top country 5 points, then all way down to 1 point
Three different voting systems 1970 to 74.
1975 - System we have now introduced.
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Post by richard on Jan 1, 2023 22:19:22 GMT
Of course you're right, I haven't heard Si played on British radio, either; although it might have been played a number of times over the years in Italy for all I know. I think even UK winners of the ESC only get played very occasionally here; and I wonder what would have happened to Waterloo had ABBA not become an enormous success subsequently? Glad it won, though, of course, because it gave ABBA the platform.
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Post by gazman on Jan 5, 2023 15:24:33 GMT
The voting system was screwed. 1970. It looks like each juror had individual vote. Belgium allocated 9 to Ireland and 1 to Monaco. All a country's votes added up to ten. 1971/2/3 - Countries gave marks to ALL countries except own of course 1974 - Top country 5 points, then all way down to 1 point Three different voting systems 1970 to 74. 1975 - System we have now introduced. The Eurovision voting systems in 1970 and 1974 were identical. Each juror had one vote - and there were 10 jurors per country. In terms of actual 1974 votes, no jury happened to give any one song more than 5 points. Many juries spread 1 or 2 votes around many songs to make up their 10. It was definitely a flawed system in hindsight - for example, had 'Waterloo' been every juror's 2nd favourite song in the contest, it would have received 0 points at the end of the evening and would have come either last, or joint last.. Despite all this, ABBA led the voting from start to finish. |
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Post by Alan on Jan 5, 2023 21:10:21 GMT
Wikipedia states for the 1974 contest:
”The two-person jury system used for the previous three contests was abandoned, with a resurrection of the 10-person jury system with one vote per juror, last used in 1970, returning. This was the final time it was used.”
That would suggest the systems for 1970 and 1974 were the same. I wonder why no country had more than five people agreeing in 1974?
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Post by Alan on Jan 5, 2023 23:59:23 GMT
That isn’t evidence though, johnny [referring to a post deleted after this one was made]. I certainly don’t see any. From what I can see, it looks like 1970 and 1974 were identical, the only difference being that no jury gave more than five points to one act in 1974, which could be a complete coincidence. If the juries were each made up of 10 people each with one vote, they were free to vote for whoever. Looking at the 1974 table in your link, Belgium gave two points to Monaco and a point each to eight other countries, so it’s incorrect to say the top vote was five and it went all the way down to one. It clearly didn’t. In those links of yours it even says for both 1970 and 1974 “Voting: Each participating country had 10 jury members, and each jury member could award one point to one song”, so that matches what Wikipedia says. You couldn’t possibly impose a rule on the jury members that no more than five could vote for one country. Sorry, but once again johnny, you’ve made yourself look foolish because you haven’t read it properly. And these were the links you provided! |
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Post by Alan on Jan 6, 2023 8:15:27 GMT
Oh, so Johnny has done an Eddie and deleted his profile along with some posts. For anyone interested, he provided these links: eurovisionworld.com/eurovision/1974eurovisionworld.com/eurovision/1970This was supposedly to prove he was right, that the 1970 and 1974 voting systems were different. It actually proves the opposite, that gazman was correct. Johnny saw what he wanted to see and didn’t check the (not so small) print. I only got involved because I didn’t like the arrogant tone he took towards gazman (one of the posts Johnny deleted) and decided to look into it myself, even though I wasn’t that interested. And sure enough, gazman was right. If someone is going to insist they’re right all the time, at least check the basic facts before coming out with some unnecessary unpleasantness and making themselves look silly. And it certainly wasn’t the first time! If anyone feels I didn’t handle this the best then please feel free to say so, but it’s been clear for a long while that he doesn’t like being challenged, even when he’s so obviously incorrect. To clarify, Johnny deleted his two most recent posts and then his profile. His choice entirely. He was in no danger of being banned. |
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Post by Guest123 on Jan 6, 2023 9:07:00 GMT
Eurovision Results
ABBA did worse than I expected. But a win is a win.
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Post by gary on Jan 6, 2023 11:23:51 GMT
Alan, you handled it fine. I didn’t understand Johnny’s message to gazman. Nothing gazman said was remotely offensive.
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Post by Alan on Jan 6, 2023 15:44:48 GMT
Eurovision Results ABBA did worse than I expected. But a win is a win. It depends how you look at it. They got two 5 scores. I can only see two other 5’s on the whole board and just three 4 scores. It’s the voting system I think. No wonder they changed it. They were six clear points ahead of second, and when the top score is only 24, that’s quite an achievement. The UK finished fourth, but it was a three-way tie. Guessing “goal difference” plays a part as the UK had a 4 and a 3 score, Luxembourg a 3 and Monaco no higher than a 2. I saw an interview with Olivia Newton-John a while ago that took place the day before the contest. She said she didn’t expect to win but it was to get her exposure on the continent (not something she’d need as it turned out, as she left the UK for America a year later).  |
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Post by Guest123 on Jan 6, 2023 16:02:57 GMT
Obviously a win and a few points ahead of the runner up.
Several countries including the UK didn't give points to ABBA. It was a pretty stupid voting system.
I can maybe understand someone thinking 5 points was the top mark if you just read the Swedish score. But you have to look at countries awarding points. They all add up to 10
Reading between the lines at the apparent spat it looks like someone left after you pointing out they were wrong and saying they looked foolish.
I reckon the public vote should be scrapped and return to jury only with the existing scoring system.
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Post by Alan on Jan 6, 2023 16:47:41 GMT
As gazman pointed out, ABBA’s fate was in the hands of just 24 individual jury members free to vote for any country other than their own (and indirectly in the hands of all other jury members allocating their votes evenly enough to keep ABBA ahead). If ABBA had been those 24 members’ second favourite song, they would have finished last on nil points.
Not going to dwell too much on the departed forum member but there was a lot of history there. I think he intimidated many people on here (including even myself at times, even though I could have removed him from the forum in an instant). He took things too far, which is fine if he actually was right (and there was once when I supported him, even though others were offended at something he said), but when he clearly wasn’t it almost gave the impression he was trolling the forum.
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Post by jerry on Jan 6, 2023 16:47:42 GMT
I watched the contest in 1974, and as far as I remember the juries were not allowed to give more than five points to one country. That is the difference between the contest in 1974 and the one in 1970. In both years the juries were allowed to give ten points in total, though. So the two contests did not quite have the same voting system.
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Post by Alan on Jan 6, 2023 16:53:01 GMT
I watched the contest in 1974, and as far as I remember the juries were not allowed to give more than five points to one country. Are you sure about that? It would seem odd to impose such a rule. If there are 10 individuals, it’s basically saying that if more than five agree, some would have to change their vote. Wouldn’t that be making a mockery of it? “You can vote for a song as long as no more than five of you vote for the same one?”. If it’s true I’d like to see some evidence of it. And here’s me with little knowledge or interest in Eurovision voting systems of fifty years ago until last night. 😂 Unless it was so that votes had to be spread a little bit in order to avoid embarrassment for some countries. Lots of 10s for one would mean no points for others. It might explain why Switzerland gave two points to Portugal, who only won one other point and came joint last. If more than five wanted to vote for Sweden, they moved their votes to a country in no danger of challenging the leaderboard, and to avoid that country’s embarrassment. In other words, some rigging of the scoring and knowledge of what other countries were voting. But only minor cosmetic rigging! In 1970, a 9 and a 6 were allocated along with a 5 (all to the winner, Ireland) but otherwise there are no points higher than a 4. |
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Post by Guest123 on Jan 7, 2023 8:46:07 GMT
I knew the voting system changed in 1975 I just didn't realise the previous system was based on individual juror votes rather than a collective consensus.
With the 12, 10, 8 etc voting now the jurors obviously come to a consensus. They hear the songs before the final and have made up their minds. Otherwise their deliberations would take so long! That being the case and I think it is, then a dodgy performance on the night won't make such a difference.
Imagine a jury decide to give country x 12 points but the performance on the night is terrible they wouldn't seem to recinsider the pecking order. Would they?
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Post by Guest123 on Jan 7, 2023 8:55:55 GMT
One further point, back in 1974 a country could have theoretically got 160 points (10 points per 16 other countries). I am not sure I believe a maximum of 5 points per song.
ABBA got just 24. 15% of the maximum. It was a very low total. Or 30% if there really was that 5 point maximum
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Post by Alan on Jan 7, 2023 15:34:30 GMT
I’ve got a friend who I think has the same book. I asked him about it but the book was at his mum’s so he couldn’t check!
That’s settled it then.
I think as the scores are so low, it’s better to add a zero to the end of each of them to give more of a post-1974 number. So ABBA got 240 points compared to Italy’s 180. Not that accurate though as it relies on a minimum of 21 countries competing, and all 20 other countries awarding top marks (12) to Sweden, which didn’t happen…
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Post by gazman on Jan 7, 2023 18:05:25 GMT
Oh, so Johnny has done an Eddie and deleted his profile along with some posts. Oh, that's a shame. I didn't see either of Johnny's subsequent posts to my previous comments. It seems rather an un-necessary thing to remove your profile over. |
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Post by gazman on Jan 7, 2023 18:33:06 GMT
Wikipedia states for the 1974 contest: ”The two-person jury system used for the previous three contests was abandoned, with a resurrection of the 10-person jury system with one vote per juror, last used in 1970, returning. This was the final time it was used.” I cannot say with certainty why the 1974 voting system was used, although I can offer a potential theory.... I believe that, after the 1973 Contest, the EBU concluded that the voting system used for the previous 3 contests was flawed. There was evidence that, from the 2 jury member system, some people would keep their votes low (they could choose from 1 to 5 per song) while some would vote higher - it was uneven. And votes were collected as they went, so if a jury member gave a 5 to a particular song and one came along later that they liked even more, they could not exceed a 5 for it. Also, since the jurors were seen on-screen, they were not anonymous - and one year, one particular juror (from Switzerland in 1973 I think) made the most of his 5 minutes of fame by gesturing to the cameras and such. It was clearly not what the EBU wanted. I imagine the EBU set out to work out and bring in a different system, but perhaps it not had been perfected by 1974 so they fell back to what they had used in 1970 (there was a rule for a 'sing-off' if 2 or more countries tied)? The new system, as previously stated, then came in during 1975 and has stayed since with 'tweaks', shall we say? |
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Post by gazman on Jan 8, 2023 12:17:23 GMT
My only source for information on the Eurovision 1970 comes from Wikipedia.....
"To avoid an incident like in 1969, a tie-breaking rule was created. It stated that, if two or more songs gained the same number of votes and were tied for first place, each song would have to be performed again. After which each national jury (other than the juries of the countries concerned) would have a show of hands of which they thought was the best. If the countries tied again, then they would share first place."
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2023 13:10:34 GMT
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Post by foreverfan on Jan 8, 2023 13:29:47 GMT
Just to add another dimension..
I’ve always loved ESC , for whatever reason, parents certainly didn’t... and the voting is possibly the most interesting.
Over the years, I guess from the very first contests, it’s been bias towards this country bias towards that one, political , neighbours , etc etc, and by now we all get it... just look at the Greece Cyprus bias to “ prove “ a point......
Many years ago I dreamt up the impossible for voting and alas it’s still impossible....
1.Everyone sing in English, which most do now, and whether right or wrong it’s the universal singing language.
2. Don’t release the song before the contest, so a surprise to all on the night
3. Don’t announce which country is singing, just a number so in fact you are voting for ie song number 9 12 points , song number 3 10 points and so on
4. Nothing to say on stage what country you are from
So effectively your voting for the song only, of course it’s impossible with marketing etc and the EBC, rely on public etc to earn revenue... but wouldn’t it be a way of undoing the bias.......
that all said, the contest has a funny way of coming up with the correct winner with only a few exceptions, like last year and I think we all agree to a point, that was the correct decision even though arguably the UK had the best song/ performance. Ironically Jamala from Ukraine in 2016 was also a poor winner, commercially at least.....
1974, was possibly the best chart wise in the UK
1. ABBA came 1st and made number 1
2. Italy came 2nd and made number 8
3, Netherlands came 3rd and made number 8 in the following week/s
4 UK. Came joint 4th and made number 11
Apparently Olivia hated the track !
I can’t remeber now but quite recent, I believe more than 4 tracks hit the top 75 singles chart, but none matched the success of 1974 and made that top end.
The last winner to make the UK top 10 was Loreen and Euphoria which made number 3 in 2012
The Common Linnets from the Netherlands was the last entry from Europe to make the top 10 , number 9 in 2014, 8 places Higher than the winner , Conchita and Rise Like. A Phoenix...
Of course the UK made number 2 in 2022.
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Post by foreverfan on Jan 8, 2023 13:56:46 GMT
In fact of the 69 wiinners ( there were 4 joint winners in 1969 ) only 7 have made number 1 in the UK
3 from the Uk
2 from Ireland
1 from Germany
1 from Sweden
Of course all sung in English
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Post by richard on Jan 8, 2023 15:00:35 GMT
[...] that all said, the contest has a funny way of coming up with the correct winner with only a few exceptions, like last year and I think we all agree to a point, that was the correct decision even though arguably the UK had the best song/ performance. Ironically Jamala from Ukraine in 2016 was also a poor winner, commercially at least..... [...] Interesting that you use the the word 'correct', Graham. In the context of ESC votes, maybe one might as well sometimes regard them as a conflation of 'most popular'/'best'/'political' - and not forgetting the physical attractiveness of the performer/performers. (I remember the late Terry Wigan commentating that when the voting panel of one country gave 12 points to a contestant: "They have an eye for beauty".) And Cheryl Baker said that if it hadn't been for the ripping-off-the-long-skirts gimmick, Buck's Fizz wouldn't have won it. (I think they won by one vote.) All I know is that when I've tried to rate the songs as I've watched the contest, I've become hopelessly confused as to what I thought was the best song. |
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Post by foreverfan on Jan 8, 2023 15:29:58 GMT
^^^ Richard, as for “ correct winner “ perhaps I should have put good winner, I think in all the years I’ve been interested and I have a bias yes bias ! towards Italian entries, just love the language, and guess what when they did win in 2021.. I hated it..lol. So I’m no judge and rarely agree with the winner.
I guess I liked both of Sweden’s last winners , but they were really so obvious winners you’d have to be stupid not to have picked them....
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Post by Alan on Jan 8, 2023 15:48:53 GMT
4 UK. Came joint 4th and made number 11 Apparently Olivia hated the track ! Her preference, from the six tracks she performed for the UK selection process, A Song For Europe, was a track called Angel Eyes (runner-up to Long Live Love with over 9,000 fewer votes). Personally I don’t think it’s much better than Long Live Love. Standard Eurovision fare for the time. ABBA really did change it forever. All six songs sung by Olivia ended up on her album, also called Long Live Love, though all were overshadowed by the track I Honestly Love You. Angel Eyes: Long Live Love: |
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Post by foreverfan on Jan 8, 2023 16:19:09 GMT
First time of hearing Angel Eyes, ( ironic ) it’s Of it’s time, but Long Live Love was better, as you say Alan, very Eurovision , but neither a winner and that goes for any year not just 1974.
Olivia certainly had a great voice didn’t she......
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