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Post by 19mark62 on Mar 15, 2024 12:32:21 GMT
Hi everyone Mark here, now this issue has stuck with me for some time now .
Back in 1981 Epic records decided to cash in on the upsurge of interest in the 12" market .
In the USA ABBA was enjoying a hit in the American club scene with LAY ALL YOUR LOVE ON ME AND ON AND ON AND ON as a 12" extended version of the songs .
So some bright spark at Epic decided to give it a go here as a 12" single , but only as a 12" not available as a standard 7" .
The result was another top ten hit for abba peaking at no 7 in the charts .
At the time it was the biggest selling 12" single in the United Kingdom if my memory serves me well selling over 215,000 copies that year alone .
A record it held for a few years until NEW ORDER with BLUE MONDAY in march 1983 reached number 9 in the charts but spending nearly 40 weeks in the charts at the time .
So ABBA held the record as the biggest selling 12" single for a couple of years , all good there !
But I have often thought about the missing sales linked to the sale of the AMERICAN 7" ATLANTIC single LAY ALL YOUR LOVE ON ME which was imported to the UK to fill in the missing 7" sales market in the UK.
I can distinctly remember buying the 12" UK single and within the week buying the 7" ATLANTIC single from the local shop !
Now I know that chart sales were not very regulated during ABBA'S chart run , and sales were not verified by the BPI or EPIC RECORDS during this time with missing award's and very poor sales recording .
So my question is HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF COPIES DID ABBA SELL IN THE UK OF THE IMPORTED 7" ATLANTIC SINGLE LAY ALL YOUR LOVE ON ME ? which was not added to the sales of the 12" UK sales .
I strongly believe that a lot of sales have been missed off the final Sales in the UK , due to the incompetence of the record label and the chart compilers , what do you guy's think ?
I would like some feedback regarding this , cheers Mark .
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Post by foreverfan on Mar 15, 2024 13:18:04 GMT
Hello Mark..
It must be a non memory of mine as this is the first I've heard of it.
I'm not saying it didn't happen as you've obviously got proof, the 7 inch may only have been released into the big cities of the UK, it certainly wasn't in provincial Cornwall, and I was lucky to have an independent large record shop in my small town, I distinctly remember buying the12 inch and Gracias LP, there , we even-had Woolworths, all in a town of about 9,000.
I waffle, but I doubt it sold very many at all, and would be surprised if many thousands....your correct on its 1981 sales and streams regularly over 300,000 daily today.
Sorry can't shed any further light, although I do remember being able at the time to buy various imports, could this be more likely ?
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Post by HOMETIME on Mar 15, 2024 14:18:29 GMT
Those imports didn't make their way to Ireland either, sadly. If you still have the record 19mark62, were the A- and B-sides flipped? I can find an Atlantic 12" release with LAYLOM on the A-side, but the 7" seems to have On And On And On as the A-side. If that's the version that was imported to the UK, it might help explain why the sales weren't combined: it's technically two different singles. ABBA's UK team really were snoozing at the wheel back then. Slight side note. I dug out my Epic 12" (oooh er, missus) to play on my new record player. The sound is amazingly crisp and detailed - better than the album. It really was a fantastic pressing. I wonder if the US 12" is even better, given that it plays at 33RPM? |
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Post by Alan on Mar 15, 2024 15:26:25 GMT
It’s unlikely that imports would have been extensive. It was a different record company, so CBS would have stamped on them as it would have affected their own sales. Also, it wasn’t the UK licensee’s choice to only issue the the single on 12”. That’s a myth that’s stuck, but the single was only released on 12” in West Germany, France and the Netherlands. It was most likely that Polar didn’t want the single releasing at all (for reasons unknown) so put restrictions in place - no promotion or video - so if the single failed it could be blamed on the 12” format and not any commercial decline of ABBA. I can’t see any 7” issues (other than more recent issues) of Lay All Your Love On Me on Discogs. As HOMETIME says, there was the US On and On and On but that wouldn’t count. |
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Post by 19mark62 on Mar 15, 2024 16:10:24 GMT
Hi guy's , thanks for the quick response to my question .
Well first of all back in 1981 I was a teenage lad of 19 and on a Saturday and holidays I worked in my local record shop , a very small and independent shop near Barnsley south Yorkshire.
And I can remember the day when the delivery of the Atlantic 7" arrived at the shop to my surprise .
It's the same pressing as the American one with both lay all your love on me and on and on and on ATLANTIC 3826 . The A side being ON AND ON AND ON , , in the states it only reached no 90 on the billboard charts and was on the charts for 6 weeks. But on the American DISCO chart a 12" version of LAYLOM AND ON AND ON AND ON ATLANTIC DMD 259 made it to number 1 on the chart and was on the chart for 28 weeks . I have a mint promo copy in my collection . So the 7" version failed to be a significant hit in the USA ,so instead of destroying the thousands of unsold copies , I believe Epic approached ATLANTIC records and shipped over a large amount to sell in the UK to compensate the record buying public for not producing a standard 7" for the UK market .
Something they did when THE WINNER TAKES IT ALL was released in 1980 a standard 7" and the deluxe 12" version !
Far too many mistakes were made by Epic records during this period and took ABBA for granted at the time .
But I definitely remember opening a box of 100 Atlantic singles to sell in the shop where I worked . And seeing other outlets in the area also selling the US single . I'm sure that's how it was back then a totally mad time for ABBA in the UK.
Plus I also recollect a couple of singles by THE JAM only available on import being a big hit in the UK at the same time period . THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT , and JUST WHO IS THE 5 O'CLOCK HERO
! ! so the opportunity to import a large amount of singles for sale in the UK was definitely possible .
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Post by Alan on Mar 15, 2024 16:41:31 GMT
The Winner Takes It All 12” was a proper UK issue on Epic, that’s the difference.
I’m sorry, but even if what you say is true, this wasn’t widespread as it’s the first anyone else has heard of it. I’m not sure imports of a different single on a different label could even count towards UK sales or charts. It’s highly questionable that a UK record company would import a single of the same two tracks (albeit reversed) by a completely different record company to supplement their own 12” (which I believe retailed at a similar price?). If it wouldn’t count in the charts, it would harm both CBS’s own sales (Epic was/is merely an imprint label, CBS - now Sony - was ABBA’s UK licensee) and the single’s chart position. A single with the listed A-side of On and On and On is NOT the same.
I would also strongly disagree that CBS made that many mistakes. They often get blamed but mostly it’s the restrictions put in place by Polar that could be perceived as the problem. They could take the odd liberty here and there but mostly had to toe the line (though as with the all the European record companies, they did have some influence).
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Post by 19mark62 on Mar 15, 2024 17:11:06 GMT
Umm okay Alan , but like I said I witnessed it myself back in 1981 . As I also said imports were also responsible for the two JAM singles I quoted with the single THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT being awarded a BPI GOLD DISC .
EPIC Was its own boss back then , not overly governed by CBS as you think .
Why did they order thousands of MONEY MONEY MONEY promo's from Canada ?
Why have thousands of copies of the singles THE NAME OF THE GAME and TAKE A CHANCE ON ME made in the USA shipped over on the EPIC LABEL ?
A lot of seemingly unexplained things were done back then , I mean every ABBA single in the UK had promotion copies made , with the exception of IDO IDO IDO IDO and SOS why not ? ? So MONEY MONEY MONEY had its promo issued here in the UK why have import promo's made in Canada ?
I know what I saw back in 81 and I'm sure many thousands of the American single were imported here to fill the gap in the market .
Plus I'm in agreement with you about the 12" being issued in the German Dutch and french territories too at the same time as the UK as I have copies in my collection .
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Post by ttbboo66 on Mar 15, 2024 19:39:37 GMT
19mark62 is correct about the US pressing of "Lay All Your Love On Me" being imported to the UK - there are others with similar stories.
He’s also right about some of the Jam’s singles charting on import copy sales alone -e.g. in 1981 "That’s Entertainment" was the German copy on the Metronome label yet still made #21 on the UK charts.
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Post by johnny on Mar 15, 2024 23:20:43 GMT
I find myself agreeing with Alan. Sales of On and On and On could simply not be added to LAYLOM, even if not an import and on same label.
The Jam's That's Entertainment did make the charts on import sales but it wasn't competing with a rival UK version so that's why it charted. It's gold disc is for digital sales not sales back in 1981 which were small.
LAYLOM was released too long after the Super Trouper album and not on 7" and so arguably denying ABBA a top 3 UK hit.
Nonetheless, LAYLOM is hugely popular now and globally the 4th most streamed ABBA track.
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Post by 19mark62 on Mar 16, 2024 9:38:49 GMT
At the end of the day, it's the missed sales !
The American Atlantic single was On and on and on/ Lay all your love on me .
The same as the UK 12" but flipped , it was imported to the UK to fill in the gap in the market, even if it's sales couldn't be added to the UK 12" sales it definitely happened and definitely shifted thousands in sales MISSED SALES FOR ABBA IN THE UK .
As for the JAM there imported singles reached NO 21 and NO 8 respectfully in the UK charts , but never the less ABBA'S UK record label took them for granted and soon another artist on the EPIC label got all the hype and attention in the form of SHAKIN STEVENS .
Bad management at Epic ended ABBA'S UK chart run in the UK MISSED chances to release singles to promote albums and the wrong track in most cases . But at the end of the day LAY ALL YOUR LOVE ON ME has finally got it's recognition as one of Abba's most loved songs with a platinum disc for over 600,000 sales on download and streaming, but Johnny is correct by saying ABBA missing out on another top 5 hit !
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Post by Alan on Mar 16, 2024 10:17:02 GMT
Sorry, 19mark62, but I disagree with you completely on every point. I get that people like to blame the local record company - to me it’s akin to football fans blaming the referee because their team is losing (“Are you blind, ref?” etc). ABBA were winding down and not giving the companies much to play with. CBS were actually helping to keep them afloat by all the picture discs and special issues. If mistakes were made, they were Polar’s/ABBA’s. Have you not considered that these supposed imports may just have been localised? Also, if they were imports, surely they’d retail for more than a UK-issued single would? With no video or promotion, the single was never destined to do that well. Number 7 was extremely respectable, even if it was their lowest since before SOS. I doubt a 7” (import or otherwise) would have helped it that much, except in people’s imaginations. |
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Post by HOMETIME on Mar 16, 2024 10:34:04 GMT
I wonder if it's possible that Epic tried to engineer a situation where the B-side turned into a hit as big as the A-side? If people had bought the Atlantic import in sufficient quantities (and from the range of shops whose sales counted towards the charts), you'd have had separate entries for LAYLOM (Epic A-side) and OAOAO (Atlantic A-side). A bit like what happened with Boney M's Rivers Of Babylon/Brown Girl In The Ring (although that really happened because of radio DJs flipping the record).
If there were enough imports, I think it's possible that OAOAO might have ended up being recorded as the bigger hit. That's not a comment on either song. What I mean is that people would have been more likely to buy the cheaper 7", whether it was the A- or B-side they preferred.
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Post by johnny on Mar 16, 2024 13:30:22 GMT
I doubt a 7” (import or otherwise) would have helped it that much, except in people’s imaginations. A 7" and possibly earlier would have improved its chart peak but perhaps by only a couple of places. It was the third single from an album that was ABBA's fastest selling album. Equally sales of import especially if B side could not have been added. |
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Post by onlyabba4meagain on Apr 2, 2024 15:04:56 GMT
It is my understanding that the UK's 12 Inch 'Lay All Your Love On Me' sold no more than
about 136,000 to 138,000 in 1981. Nothing to do with the quality of the Track. Everything
to do with it being widely seen as a 'Rip Off'. (it was about the UK's 126th Best Selling Hit
of the Year. A huge fall from 'Super Trouper' being the 4th Best Seller for 1980).
Polar Music, and/or Epic Records, Expected ABBA Fans, and 'The Public', to pay twice the Price
of a 7 Inch Single, for a 12 Inch Record, that was neither Extended nor Remixed. It did not even
try to make up for it by having 2 'B' Sides.
Such an obvious 'Rip Off', that Britain's most well known UK Chart Expert' - and big ABBA Fan --
Alan Jones - said that it was: 'Poor value for money', in his 'Record Mirror' Chart Column. He also
predicted that it would cost ABBA a UK Top 5 Hit. How right he was. Its No.7 Peak ended a great
'Run' of 15 UK Top 5 Hits in a row. From 'Mamma Mia' to 'Super Trouper'.
It would have sold at least 200,000 to 250,000 more, had it been on regular Priced 7 Inch Vinyl.
So, it only reached No.7 in the UK's 'Official Charts' at the time - BMRB. (British Market Research Bureau).
It did reach No.5 in both the 'New Musical Express', and 'Melody Maker' Charts. But those 2 UK Charts only
put 'Summer Night City' at No.8 and No.9 respectively. It was a No.5 Hit in BMRB.
So, 'Lay All Your Love On Me' is a great ABBA Track, that was very poorly Marketed.
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Post by jj on Apr 2, 2024 15:16:31 GMT
So good to read you again, Colin. We've missed you.
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Post by johnny on Apr 2, 2024 15:32:23 GMT
My understanding is that NME and MM charts were points based. Actual sales from their sample shops weren't added together like with BMRB.
It's understansble why LAYLOM didn't get higher but SNC only got to #7 on the BMRB chart, was available on 7" and not on any album. I guess fans just didn't like it.
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Post by jj on Apr 2, 2024 16:51:19 GMT
SNC only got to #7 on the BMRB chart [...] I guess fans just didn't like it.
Let's be realistic, now. Back in the 1970s and 80s, it was impossible for ABBA to have relied solely on their most dedicated and avid fans to propel their singles into the top 10. They relied on fans to purchase their records, of course, but it was a combination of their fans' plus the general public's (some of whom might not necessarily identify as ABBA fans) purchases that were needed to get a record into the top 10. Every die-hard ABBA fan in the UK might have bought "Summer Night City" upon its release (and I'm quite sure most of them did), but that category of buyer couldn't have helped it get much higher than the lower part of the top 20 back in the day. The majority of the sales (and the song's eventual top 5 peak) would have surely been mostly thanks to purchases by ordinary people who also happened to like the song enough to buy it. Obviously, the general public didn't take to "Summer Night City" as much as they had taken to "Take a Chance on Me", or to "Chiquitita" later on, and that's why it didn't peak at a higher position.
So what I'm saying is that, whether or not ABBA fans liked (or didn't like) an ABBA single had much less influence than you would think on the final sales figures for ABBA's records - especially back then, when record sales were huge. First and foremost, ABBA had to produce music that the general public liked to guarantee high chart positions for their records.
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Post by johnny on Apr 2, 2024 17:24:06 GMT
A bit picky. I obviously should have said something like 'the public' or 'ABBA Record Buyers'.
To me there are different levels of fans from the casual to the committed.
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Post by HOMETIME on Apr 2, 2024 17:44:11 GMT
Does this help, onlyabba4meagain ? The entire chart is fascinating. For those that are interested , from another site UKMIX. Some members have compiled a top 5000 of sales from the 1980s Here are ABBAs sales, apparently very accurate..... Here are ABBA's UK 1980s sales from Robbie #42 Super Trouper, 698, 028 #115 One of Us, 525, 302 #152 The Winner Takes it All 475,775 #1056 I Have a Dream 186,138 #1107 LAYLOM. 178,248 #1534 Head Over Heels 132,664 #1866 Under Attack, 103,712 #2048 The Day Before You Came, 88, 892. #3082 Thankyou for the Music, 44,489 #2546 I Know There’s Something Going On, 62,120 #3059 The Heat is On 44, 846 #4010 Wrap Your Arms Around Me 26,724 I was always sceptical about TWTIA selling over 500k let alone 600k. The minor hits did better than I expected. |
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Post by HOMETIME on Apr 2, 2024 17:47:54 GMT
With SNC, I think the people who tended to buy the most ABBA records might have been taken aback by its hardness (relative to their other singles). I think the same thing happened with DYMK, which peaked only one place higher. I wonder if that might be why Epic made the poppier Angeleyes the lead A-side, with the brasher/tougher Voulez-Vous on the A2 side?
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