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Post by HOMETIME on Apr 10, 2023 12:53:50 GMT
The reviews are of an album that much older, semi-retired pop icons prepared and released as they are now. If you think those reviews are harsh (and I do), try to imagine how much worse they'd have been if ABBA had tried to present something rooted in the contemporary pop trends. I think there might even have been some gritting of teeth to get it as poppy as it is.
The melodies say so much about where Benny is as a composer. WYDWM and BB are actually quite similar in their melodic flow and style. On the former, they opted for a pop setting; on the latter, they leaned a little more into folk. I think I've raised some people's hackles with my personal distaste for flutes - but it's always been a thing for me. Maybe I'm wrong: maybe the flute arrangement is not supposed to be redolent of the arrangement in Fernando. It just sounds that way to me. I think Bumblebee is a beautiful melody, beautifully sung. It's so beautiful, in fact, that I think it should have been allowed to shine in a simpler, more pared-back arrangement. No flutes needed. Just strummed acoustic guitar and maybe some strings to lift the song as it progressed. I agree with Phil that a lyric about the human condition would have tapped even better into Frida's ability to deliver emotional scenarios so deftly. With the hints of the old days here and there, my beef is that these kinds of things are more usually (and wittily) woven in to live performances. These songs are good enough to stand on their own without those retrospective flourishes.
As for I Can Be That Woman, I really don't see the misogyny either. I think the core of the song comes from a very honest place. Weaving the dog into the narrative might be scene-setting overkill, but the scenario is realistic and the maudlin whiffs of self pity match some of what I've seen from the people in my orbit who are living with addictions. Would we have shouted "misandry!" if Bjorn had sung that lyric? No. Addiction is a gender neutral scourge. The story was delivered by a gifted singer who happens to be a woman. On the other hand, I think we might be raising our eyebrows if Bjorn had been sitting in the rain outside a woman's apartment, waiting for nightfall before he turned up at her door...
Actually, I think that both Frida and Agnetha deserve a bit more credit for giving performances better than the lyrics sometimes deserve. And I don't just mean on Voyage - I mean right across ABBA's output. We might be readier to acknowledge it with the solo albums, but I think it's true of their work with ABBA: their performances were sometimes way better than the material assigned to them. I realise that's a whole other discussion, a brand new can of worms.
With both Little Things (another pristine melody that might have been even better in a very bare arrangement) and Keep An Eye On Dan, I admire that the women commit so well to the storylines that you forget to do the maths about their ages. They're proper acting jobs.
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Post by richard on Apr 10, 2023 14:07:53 GMT
[...] Actually, I think that both Frida and Agnetha deserve a bit more credit for giving performances better than the lyrics sometimes deserve. And I don't just mean on Voyage - I mean right across ABBA's output. We might be readier to acknowledge it with the solo albums, but I think it's true of their work with ABBA: their performances were sometimes way better than the material assigned to them. I realise that's a whole other discussion, a brand new can of worms. [....] Couldn't agree more! I've always thought that Agnetha and Frida's singing have enhanced Benny and Bjorn's songs, and that the two women deserve equal credit with the songwriters with regard to their success. Maybe it's less so nowadays, but I think there was a tendency in the past to regard the guys as 'the ones', and that the two women were attractive but secondary, with the implication that any pair of reasonably competent and pretty vocalists could have been substituted. No way, of course! Indeed, as I've argued before, they could have hired other commercial songwriters to write for 'ABBA' and the group could still have been a big success with Agnetha and Frida singing those non-B&B songs.. Needless to say, this is not to deny the brilliant songwriting of Benny and Bjorn, but to emphasise the importance of Agnetha and Frida. |
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Post by bennybjorn on Apr 10, 2023 14:31:08 GMT
The reviews are of an album that much older, semi-retired pop icons prepared and released as they are now. If you think those reviews are harsh (and I do), try to imagine how much worse they'd have been if ABBA had tried to present something rooted in the contemporary pop trends. I think there might even have been some gritting of teeth to get it as poppy as it is. The melodies say so much about where Benny is as a composer. WYDWM and BB are actually quite similar in their melodic flow and style. On the former, they opted for a pop setting; on the latter, they leaned a little more into folk. I think I've raised some people's hackles with my personal distaste for flutes - but it's always been a thing for me. Maybe I'm wrong: maybe the flute arrangement is not supposed to be redolent of the arrangement in Fernando. It just sounds that way to me. I think Bumblebee is a beautiful melody, beautifully sung. It's so beautiful, in fact, that I think it should have been allowed to shine in a simpler, more pared-back arrangement. No flutes needed. Just strummed acoustic guitar and maybe some strings to lift the song as it progressed. I agree with Phil that a lyric about the human condition would have tapped even better into Frida's ability to deliver emotional scenarios so deftly. With the hints of the old days here and there, my beef is that these kinds of things are more usually (and wittily) woven in to live performances. These songs are good enough to stand on their own without those retrospective flourishes. As for I Can Be That Woman, I really don't see the misogyny either. I think the core of the song comes from a very honest place. Weaving the dog into the narrative might be scene-setting overkill, but the scenario is realistic and the maudlin whiffs of self pity match some of what I've seen from the people in my orbit who are living with addictions. Would we have shouted "misandry!" if Bjorn had sung that lyric? No. Addiction is a gender neutral scourge. The story was delivered by a gifted singer who happens to be a woman. On the other hand, I think we might be raising our eyebrows if Bjorn had been sitting in the rain outside a woman's apartment, waiting for nightfall before he turned up at her door... Actually, I think that both Frida and Agnetha deserve a bit more credit for giving performances better than the lyrics sometimes deserve. And I don't just mean on Voyage - I mean right across ABBA's output. We might be readier to acknowledge it with the solo albums, but I think it's true of their work with ABBA: their performances were sometimes way better than the material assigned to them. I realise that's a whole other discussion, a brand new can of worms. With both Little Things (another pristine melody that might have been even better in a very bare arrangement) and Keep An Eye On Dan, I admire that the women commit so well to the storylines that you forget to do the maths about their ages. They're proper acting jobs. Don't always agree with your views HOMETIME, but love your writing. Guessing you are probably a journalist of some description out there in the real world, or writing is a central part of what you do? |
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Post by HOMETIME on Apr 10, 2023 15:42:02 GMT
That's very kind of you bennybjorn but no, I'm not a journalist or a writer. The only thing I can hold my hands up to is a couple of music articles on Yazoo and Bucks Fizz that I was asked to do by a UK site (The Recs) but that's it. They certainly weren't paid gigs either!  . My 9-to-5 doesn't rely on writing. But I appreciate the nice comment *blush emoji* |
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Post by HOMETIME on Apr 10, 2023 15:47:34 GMT
[...] I've always thought that Agnetha and Frida's singing have enhanced Benny and Bjorn's songs, and that the two women deserve equal credit with the songwriters with regard to their success. [...] Needless to say, this is not to deny the brilliant songwriting of Benny and Bjorn, but to emphasise the importance of Agnetha and Frida. I suspect there may be points where Agnetha and Frida probably deserved writing credits for their contributions. The one that most easily jumps to mind is that aria melody line in the middle of TDBYC that Frida devised in the studio. Even cover versions include it as an essential part of the music. I imagine there are plenty such instances scattered across the ABBA catalogue where the women's contribution should have been more formally credited. |
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Post by Alan on Apr 10, 2023 18:51:09 GMT
Where I have mixed opinion (Amber light) 🟠 It's not that the 8 tracks should never have been released when recorded and finished but perhaps they should never have been recorded at all! I totally get the point once recorded they had to be released. I’d have felt severely short-changed if we’d only got the first two songs. I’d have been thinking “these are so good, why did they stop there?” And also that a compilation is no decent home for them. The original compilation albums the five non-album singles appeared on are all long deleted. I’m happy with eight songs that aren’t quite up to the standard of those two, and some way better than others. |
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Post by Michal on Apr 10, 2023 19:06:39 GMT
🟠 It's not that the 8 tracks should never have been released when recorded and finished but perhaps they should never have been recorded at all! That's quite a shocking opinion! Do you really think that those 8 songs are so bad that they shouldn't have bothered at all? I like the album a lot. I had my reservations at first but it has grown on me. Even Little Things, which I couldn't stand in the beginning. Actually I think that the main problem of the record is the production and mixing. ABBA was famous for top-notch production and sound during their prime and unfortunately Voyage can't match the original albums in that respect. But I was saying from the very beginning that just to hear Agnetha and Frida together was enough for me, even if they were singing folk songs or covers. And we got so much more. It was totally unexpected and I'm grateful they recorded and released the album. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2023 20:06:27 GMT
Myn"amber light" comments have caused a bit of a stir.
Like I said, I think the first two songs are by far the best. This is not an uncommon opinion. To me it would have been better to release them and have people wanting more rather than release that final album which wasn't bad - just average. Again, outside the hardcore fan ABBA bubble this is not an uncommon opinion.
I have also said I am quite happy with the commercial success of Voyage, once released. Indeed I have posted on its chart and sales successes. I just think it is an ordinardy album.
On I Can Be That Woman, to me it it is sexist. But then if you can't accept that you are going to think a certain way on other issues imo....but let's not go there. 😀
Nighty Night. Johnny.
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Post by Alan on Apr 10, 2023 20:28:32 GMT
On I Can Be That Woman, to me it it is sexist. I think I get where you’re coming from here. It should really be “I Can Be A Better Person”, which could apply to either of the human characters in the song. The gender is irrelevant. A bit like “I Am Just A Girl” which is saying “I think I’m ordinary” (or perhaps even less than ordinary), but the gender unnecessarily confuses things. |
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Post by BAAB on Apr 10, 2023 20:47:05 GMT
During ABBA's heydays, every new Album was a step forward. New recordings had the soundscape of that time and beyond and therefore surprised listeners and fans.
VOYAGE is a look back and produced by musicians who don't connect to the actual music scene. But it was the only possible way for them to come up with new music, celebrating the Retro Style with dashes of theatrical music like OTF.
Anyone who wishes to get a tenth album needs to be aware that it would also be a look back, not a look into the future.
As Björn once quoted, Pop is for young people. At a certain stage you loose connection to the young people, music wise.
A tenth Album would neither be more Pop oriented nor would it be more coherend. It would rather be a second VOYAGE Album, I guess.
2 years ago, no one would have imagined that a füll new ABBA Album would possibly see the light of days, now fans already ask for more and this will always be on display. One more Song, one more Album, one more Musical, it never will stop.
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Post by Elaine on Apr 10, 2023 22:23:28 GMT
During ABBA's heydays, every new Album was a step forward. New recordings had the soundscape of that time and beyond and therefore surprised listeners and fans. VOYAGE is a look back and produced by musicians who don't connect to the actual music scene. But it was the only possible way for them to come up with new music, celebrating the Retro Style with dashes of theatrical music like OTF. Anyone who wishes to get a tenth album needs to be aware that it would also be a look back, not a look into the future. As Björn once quoted, Pop is for young people. At a certain stage you loose connection to the young people, music wise. A tenth Album would neither be more Pop oriented nor would it be more coherend. It would rather be a second VOYAGE Album, I guess. 2 years ago, no one would have imagined that a füll new ABBA Album would possibly see the light of days, now fans already ask for more and this will always be on display. One more Song, one more Album, one more Musical, it never will stop. So beautifully discribed.All on point.Thank u BAAB.Elaine x ,, |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2023 6:03:46 GMT
BAAB, you are right. There are some fans who are never satisfied and always want more.
I remember reading in various forums over the years fans demanding a new album and that "ABBA owe us". They demanded the release of JLT which was built up as a masterpiece.
Now we have had an album some want more. Another album. The release of the rwo unfinished songs (It was stupid of Benny "foot in mouth" Andersson to even mention their existence)
Yep, I think if in the very unlikely event there was another album it would be Voyage 2. Or Departure 😀
Then there's the misinterpretation of every utterance by ABBA members. Frida was being polite with her "never say never" comment - this on the back of an abrupt 'that's it' type comment from Benny or Bjorn. Then there was the misguided interpretation of Agnetha's playful "they want more" to Benny at the Voyage premiere. No folks, there will be no more. Well, not new. At most the release of the unfinished tracks but don't bank on that.
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Post by clumsylikeaclown on Apr 11, 2023 10:46:56 GMT
All these comments on I Can Be That Woman are interesting, because I'll admit when I first heard it and before I read Bjorn's explanation of the song, I always had a much different interpretation of the lyrics.
I missed the alcoholism connection entirely and instead perceived a relationship that's utterly toxic on *both* sides but with the protag being so mentally beaten down she assigns all the blame to herself to gain some sense of control over it. And the whole 'I can be that woman' refrain was desperation rather than a genuine belief in being able to change.
But then that wouldn't really fit with the 'bittersweet' theme the rest of the album has so I'm happy to disregard my former interpretation entirely
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Post by richard on Apr 11, 2023 12:38:46 GMT
I doubt there have been many ABBA fans who, pre-Voyage, expected more and more. It's just that the unlikely and happily and gratefullly-received Voyage album had given some of us hope that there could be, or might have been, one final and great 50th Anniversary album to wonderfully close their brilliant recording career.
But, deep down, I also don't really expect it to happen.
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Post by Ed on Apr 11, 2023 14:03:16 GMT
For ABBA to record " Voyage " so late in their lives should be commended as an outstanding achievement and to reach number one in the charts is incredible in this day and age when songs are not regarded as songs anymore. Certainly not for composition, structure or most importantly melody. Also, the quality of ABBA's comeback album outshines any of these contemporary artists of today. ABBA continue to possess more talent in their little finger than any of their successors. That is purely my perspective.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2023 12:00:55 GMT
.. might have been, one final and great 50th Anniversary album to wonderfully close their brilliant recording career. But, deep down, I also don't really expect it to happen. I don't expect it either. Voyage was a one-off comeback album. I do however, wish there was *something* to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of Waterloo next year. Maybe not new music but an extensive interview or documentary. And an admission that this is the end. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2023 12:49:43 GMT
All these comments on I Can Be That Woman are interesting, because I'll admit when I first heard it and before I read Bjorn's explanation of the song, I always had a much different interpretation of the lyrics. I missed the alcoholism connection entirely and instead perceived a relationship that's utterly toxic on *both* sides but with the protag being so mentally beaten down she assigns all the blame to herself to gain some sense of control over it. And the whole 'I can be that woman' refrain was desperation rather than a genuine belief in being able to change. But then that wouldn't really fit with the 'bittersweet' theme the rest of the album has so I'm happy to disregard my former interpretation entirely Some good points. When you listen to the lyrics of a song you shouldn't really need background information or context to somehow understand it.I had no idea about any alcohol issues with Bjorn or Benny as some have said on occassions. The relationship between the couple was clearly toxic. The line that I am uneasy with is "I let you down again". A woman taking the blame in a whiny, defeatist tone. On other issues, overall Voyage to me is average. A couple of great songs, 2 or 3 I don't care for and the rest rather middling. It's not as good as the last album, The Visotors of course but I prefer it to the last recordings in 1982. I guess for commercial reasons you had to have an album. It did well whereas if just ISHFIY and DSMD were just released there would have been a flurry of streaming interest for a week or two. Finally, a point Alan said about the 5 non-album singles being on compilation albums that are now deleted. True. But two appear on Gold and three on More Gold. All on The Definitive Collection and various box sets. And all festured in Mamma Mia - either stage play, film or soundtrack. The first two Voyage songs could have been on compilations but I guess a brand new album was more news worthy and a bigger deal. |
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Post by bennybjorn on Apr 18, 2023 16:04:54 GMT
Oh no.
I don't think Bjorn's ever been quite so blunt on the subject before.
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Post by foreverfan on Apr 18, 2023 18:19:51 GMT
I know we’ve been here many times regarding above, but for some reason, I’ve a tendency to believe it this time, obviously I’d like to be wrong and I truly wish Benny hadn’t mentioned those two unfinished tracks, if it was said by accident, ok, otherwise it’s a cruel thing to have said , knowing full well fans always want more, however misguided .
Yes he has a mischievous sense of humour, but come on.....
I guess there’s always “ hope” and of course there may be other projects that Bjorn hinted at in the article above, but as for new music.....
It looks like it’s all over......
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Post by HOMETIME on Apr 18, 2023 19:18:11 GMT
I'm resigned to nothing happening... yet*
Bjorn might have been blunt, but I think it matters how he interpreted the question - and how the question was phrased. "No more new material" can't really be a surprise to many of us. For all our hopes and wishes, I think most of us understand that Voyage was the last album. I think Bjorn might have been saying no to another album. But if the two unreleased songs aren't total duds, then I reckon it's within the realms of possibility that they might somehow find their way onto some kind of compilation. As they already exist (in whatever unfinished state) they're not technically new, so... Clutching at straws? Yes!
If the show is copied for export, I wonder if there's any hope that they might be inspired to get together and mo-cap a few more tunes? Switching up the playlist is one thing, but as technology evolves, there might also be a point in extending the show's running time.
*Not to get unduly morbid, I sometimes wonder what might emerge when the ABBA members are no longer with us. How will their legacy be curated, and by whom? Something tells me they've been blessed with a vicious streak of longevity, so they might outlive us all. But you get my drift.
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Post by bennybjorn on Apr 18, 2023 21:42:02 GMT
I know we’ve been here many times regarding above, but for some reason, I’ve a tendency to believe it this time, obviously I’d like to be wrong and I truly wish Benny hadn’t mentioned those two unfinished tracks, if it was said by accident, ok, otherwise it’s a cruel thing to have said , knowing full well fans always want more, however misguided . Yes he has a mischievous sense of humour, but come on..... I guess there’s always “ hope” and of course there may be other projects that Bjorn hinted at in the article above, but as for new music..... It looks like it’s all over...... I don't think Bjorn's ever been so blunt on the issue. Benny yes, but not Bjorn. That's what's different here. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2023 6:12:36 GMT
Shortly after Voyage was released there was this statement from Benny saying that was the last album. ABBA should have stuck with that. But hey, some fans got upset.
So Frida's polite "never say never" raised hopes. Benny blurting out two unfinished songs which were "quite good" also added to specultion. But now hopes are dashed. I agree with you Foreverfan. It would have been better if Benny kept his trap shut about them
I think Hometime is clutching at straws with the description of the unfinished songs as not "new". Technically true, and possibly they could appear on a compilation at some stage. But it seems keeping these hopes alive rather than killing off the idea of "that's all, folks".
Raising hopes, speculating, dashing hopes in my mind is worse than saying from the start that Voyage was the end. Benny - and Frida's comments weren't helpful
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2023 6:21:14 GMT
On the Voyage concert, well, nothing new. We knew they did more capture motions than songs currently in the show.
No sign yet of any change to selist.It is clear they want the show to continue in London for as long as possible.
As for new locations I am not too sure about suggestions of Asia (a big place!), Australia or North America. I don't think ABBA would have the fan base in those places.
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Post by HOMETIME on Apr 19, 2023 8:00:43 GMT
Maybe ABBA have been paying attention to the old showbiz adage "always leave them wanting more." I'm happy to clutch at the straws for the sake of a conflab on the issue: it's no more than harmless fun.
It'd be interesting to see what kind of research goes into the selection of additional sites. I can't imagine they'd simply throw darts at a map. North America seems, finally, to have taken ABBA to its heart (well, relatively speaking). But would that put enough bums on seats for a period extended to make a profit? Las Vegas seems like the likely spot: it's home to so many pop residencies and is still a draw for international tourists keen to splash the cash. While I can see why Australia gets mentioned in the same breath as ABBA, there remains the issue of how their popularity shrank from 1977 onwards. A population of 25+ million is great, and despite it being scattered across a huge landmass, I imagine people might be happy to travel to, say, Sydney or Melbourne for a show? What proportion of Sydney's 4 million international visitors, annually, would buy tickets? I've absolutely no idea what the ABBA's Asian market is like.
I wonder, too, whether changes to the setlist might be required for some of the other sites, to reflect their local charts and discographies?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2023 11:42:22 GMT
I don't think ABBA would get bums on seats anywhere outside Europe for Voyage.
America - big surge in popularity since 1990s. Well for "Gold" anyway. Not convinced that translates to people spending $100 a ticket and travelling across a huge country - with that additional time and cost.
Australia - too right about collapse in popularity since 1977. Gold sold well and there was something of a revival but same issues with America regarding cost, size of country and added problem of 30 million people over Australia/NZ when there's 500 million plus and lots more ABBA fans in Europe.
Asia - simply not the market.
If Voyage were to re-locate it would have to be in Europe. Thing is, London is pretty near ABBA's key European markets of Germany, Scandinavia and Benelux.
Finally, "always leave them wanting more" is very good advice - and especially after how things went out on a whimper in 1982.
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Post by richard on Apr 19, 2023 12:01:08 GMT
I think that "harmless fun', as Tony puts it, is as good and realistic a reason as to why the few of us who do post here bother!
Going by what Bjorn says - and always Benny, of course - I accept that the Voyage album is it. But I keep coming back to my point: don't musicians want to continue making music for as long as they feel capable - especially if it would be for a final 50th Anniversary 'goodbye', recording-wise.
For the reasons others have mentioned, keeping the Voyage show in London for as long as possible makes sense. And hopefully the technology will, before too long, enable them to change the setlist of songs more flexibly and
economically.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2023 15:46:28 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2023 19:41:44 GMT
Yeah, for sure ABBA have a higher profile in America now. And yes, GOLD sold millions. Mamma Mia! films did well too.
But
1. Would Las Vegas be viable AFTER shown in London (with mainland Europe on doorstep)
2. Would European fans travel to the US?
3 Have ABBA a US fanbase, beyond a GH buyer that would pay up to $100 dollars a ticket? And more to travel/hotel there.
4. Would it really get the "curious" techy/casual fan for $100 a ticket plus extras?
5.If another location after London is considered why should it be Las Vegas?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2023 8:10:12 GMT
Despite the million plus tickets sold the show has yet to make a profit because of the enormous costs in setting it up.And costs and time of re-locating.
Let it continue in London - and this is also near the other key ABBA markets in North and West Europe.
Las Vegas *could* work but they would have to be sure of commercial viability.Don't forget this isn't a typical show.
Dublin is not realistic. Too near London and if moving in Europe, the wrong direction. They would need to rely on overseas visitors.
Sydney- not sure how long it could run. It is in a vast country. Better for higher population, more compact destinations
EDIT: perhaps these posts on venues belong in the Voyage Concerts thread.
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Post by AdamDawson2003 on Apr 23, 2023 23:46:14 GMT
I am constantly telling people that ABBA have lots more songs than whats on ABBA Gold it really annoys me when radio stations play the biggest hits although a few weeks ago I did hear 'Under Attack' being played which I was thrilled about its one of ABBA's best and most underrated songs and its not played very often on the radio I always request 'Under Attack' at parties I do wish the radio stations would play more of the album songs and B-Sides some amazing songs on the 9 studio albums.
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. My 9-to-5 doesn't rely on writing. But I appreciate the nice comment *blush emoji*
